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Pugs, Jerks, and Fixes (a bit of a Rant and LONG)
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Post by
533681
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Post by
Adamsm
1. Gearscore is dead, get rid of that out dated mod, and use your iLvl score, that is the only important thing.
2. Heroics already have a minimum iLvl requirement, but unfortunately, it is easy to abuse, as has been posted.
3. Not sure what your guild is like, but consider only running heroics with them. I have a guild member who has sworn off pugs, and will only run with other members, which isn't a hard thing to do, as most of the guild runs them over the course of the day as people log in and out.
4. Welcome to Cata, get your mind out of the Wrath mentality.
5. The game is meant to be played by everyone; whether it's an %^&*!@#, a person with an over blown sense of self, a budding martyr, a self styled saint etc etc, they pay for the same game you do, and unfortunately, as this is the internet, all sense of self vanishes when your not face to face.
Post by
533681
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Post by
239153
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Post by
Adamsm
1) Gearscore is useful because it helps distinguish the level of investment that has been made in enchants and gems (at least as I understand and have tested lvl score). I could have posted level score but IMHO that would be less meaningful. I am fine to migrate once Blizz figures out a way to recognize this investment in upgrading that its game mechanics encourages and which the game supposedly values in toon performance.No it's not; GS never did that as it was shattered by the end of Wrath as anyone could get the required score easily but still wouldn't know what the heck they were doing. The 'new' iLvl system works better, and it is the actual requirement for the dungeons and the Heroics in Cata; if you don't have the required level, your not getting in.
2) Yes. true. But lets also remember that Blizzard did a horrible job (and still does) in segregating folks into servers according to "home" time zone. 3 years ago as a nob I simply accepted the "recommended" server that Blizzard PROMISED was appropriate for my west coast time zone. Bah. Heavily populated with what have become my east coast friends. Now I have found a late night raiding group but often mid-week most/many have logged off to get some sleep. I am not going to transfer just because of assh***. Nor should I. far better to exert my "exit" strategy of finding a new game. I run plenty with guildees but it is sad that then they are otherwise engaged, logged off, don't have 1.5 hours that there are no other options.I'm in an East Coast time for my server, but roughly half of my guild mates are West coast, yet we still to do just fine with running things. Fine, you don't want to server transfer, find a group of same time zone people as you on the server, and run the heroics with them, or find groups in Trade where you can investigate them and make sure they are up to 'snuff'. I agree that you shouldn't be forced to transfer.....but if your expecting Blizzard to change everything for just one person, well....you might be playing the wrong game.
4-5) No. The game is meant to be a SOCIAL activity. There are simple fixes used in millions of daily social rules and norms that encourage positive interactions - including ones that occur absent face to face contact. Blizzard just needs to think about those a bit and put in some fixes. If one believes that, for the ENTIRETY of the community it would create more positive utility, they should do this.Sorry, but Horse Pucky; well the game is set for Teen, online it's more of an M rating and you can't control people; people are #$%^&*s, they are good players, they are complete and utter jackasses, and expecting pugs, Pick Up Groups, to conform to your own play style is a waste, as that's not the point of a PuG sorry to say.
But overall you agree - you note that one of your guildees has also sworn off them. That is what it will come to.....many players saying "screw pugs" at the point I don't absolutely need em. We have already seen by the number of geared 85 zergs that the preferred way of leveling rep is to bypass heroics and just que up 85 regs and zerg the crap out of them./shrug That was how it was in BC; PuG's existed, but not at the same rate as they do here. During the BC, out of a week worth of dungeon runs, I would say I only ever ran 2-5 with a PuG, the rest of time was always with my Guild. Sorry you haven't found that group. And there is nothing with wrong with that; in Wrath yes you could just que up for a Heroic and face roll through even if you were in the bare minimum of crap gear. In Cata, if you try that, well, then Blizzard actually listened to people for once; you already said you want people to run the regulars first, but you seem to have a problem with them doing that....
And that works to the detriment of those pugging players who are NOT jerks. That is precisely what Hobbes warns us of...that the poor behavior of a few, because it is in their short term interests, ends up leading to poor outcomes for many/most - including those that don't start wanting to live where life is nasty, brutish, and short.And to that I say,
Welcome to the Internet
.
Post by
533681
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203406
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533681
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533681
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Post by
309875
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Post by
Quesac
TL;DR version: Some people just have to be kicked. To punish a player for kicking a bad player is wrong.
In my mind one fix would be to inversely link the penalties for kicks and jumping out of dungeons to wipes. If you initiate a kick before a single wipe then there should be a penalty. The fairest would seem to be time in the que.
I have to disagree with this. On my Druid healer the other day I braved the LFG tool and queued up. Got it rather quickly, everyone was getting up buffs, saying Hi, the normal things you do when you first pop into a dungeon like that, when the Pally goes and pulls first group without warning. I was at half mana when he pulled but healed him through it, sat down to drink and he pulled 2 more groups. I was able to heal through that but now I have 0 mana and HAVE to drink. Just as I start drinking, he's pulling another group. I managed to get enough mana to not let anyone die. This is when I ask him to not pull when I'm drinking.
Now he's asking "ready" before every pull. Kind of annoying, but I did ask for it in a sense so I don't complain. While he's tanking right before boss, the mage gets aggro by a pat from behind. I heal the mage and I get aggro on the Pat. I run up to tank, he doesn't grab the mob. I stand next to tank jumping up and down, he still doesnt' see me getting attacked. I even /DANCE with the tank. He never saw it.
After we finished with that pull, we vote kicked him. After going through all that, you want to punish ME for not wanting to play with someone who either didn't understand his role, or just didn't care? I don't think so.
Post by
Pwntiff
My usual group (Prot Warrior, Fury Warrior, Combat/Ass Rogue, and Boomkin) frequently have to change healers mid-Heroic. Sometimes they're just bad and we kick them, but most of the time, it's a bad pull or the tank dying from lack of heals and the healer leaves either right before he dies or right after.
I think our current record is five healers in a single instance, which I believe was our group's first run of SFK.
Post by
533681
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Post by
wrlwnd
And finally let me suggest what the incentives are for THIS tank (I may start doing this). Why wouldn't I que, get in, and say
'OK, link achievement X or I am leaving
" No hi, hello or hail fellow well met. Who gives a rats ass if they kick me at the start. My ques are instant. I will never see you again. I can wait till I get a group that HAS these achievements and understands why I would ask.
And hey, as you say, "Welcome to the Internet"
And that kind of behavior has kept me out of raids and kept me out of most instances till LFD. As a casual player I do not begin to think that I am anything but mediocre, but play this for MY enjoyment and hate that attitude in pugs. I have yet to get into a real (not my personal banking guild) due to primarily my erratic work/travel schedule and am not sure if I ever will, but would like to to attempt some raiding.
Post by
533681
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Post by
533681
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Post by
Quesac
After we finished with that pull, we vote kicked him. After going through all that, you want to punish ME for not wanting to play with someone who either didn't understand his role, or just didn't care? I don't think so.
That is a great counter example. I guess the question would be is whether the right thing to do in that case (again, for the OVERALL good of the community - understanding that your pug suffers in the immediate term from doing that) is to wait untill poor pally play results in a wipe. If you read my post, it isn't hard to imagine convex curve - with a long que for kicking with no wipe and essentially the status quo (or slight decrease) from kicking after 1.
The basic tenant of game theory is that we KNOW the actions required of you are sub-otimal in the short term. The prisoners in a prisoners delimma have STRONG individual incentives to rat the other out even though they are mutually better off if they can coordinate their actions to keep quiet. So what we are tryijng to do is reward you enough for your patience so that you take the extra step before booting the pally.
Negative. Bad play is bad play. Forcing a group to compensate for a bad player is the wrong answer. By bad player, I don't mean a noob who is trying to learn, I mean a player who just doesn't listen/care.
By your reasoning, I can go in there with my Warlock and just stand there not doing any dps and if the group kicks me, they get punished because we never wiped.
Post by
xaratherus
I am sorry if unclear but playstyle is NOT the issue. I could care less about that. I just think that is it not unrealistic (nor abnormal) to expect civility. And if you haven't noticed the decline since CAT launch you are not playing attention.
My overall PuG experience has actually been
better
than it was in Wrath; folks have been far more patient in the runs I've done, either because they realize zerging the content is more difficult and will frequently lead to wipes, or because they themselves are still learning the content.
There is no need to imply an insult to get your point across; you're assuming that your experiences are universal, and that's just not true.
Mechanical systems will always have exploits. The changes that you suggest for penalizing people for kicking before dying during a run seem, to me, to be a symptom worse than the one that you're attempting to treat.
The only real 'solution' for the issue, I think, would be for Blizzard to police LFD and levy penalties when you report someone to them. The overhead that this requires, though, makes it unlikely that we'll ever see it implemented.
A possible suggestion that I've seen before: Have 'mature' servers that are strictly policed by GMs, with explicit rules of conduct for play on the server, and a penalty of enforced server transfer if you violate the server's code of conduct. This provides the same mediation as the above, but with much smaller overhead since it only requires policing a handful of servers rather than the hundreds they have currently.
Or you could take the solution that I took in Wrath, when I got tired of the pugs who spoke solely in 4-letter words, and who didn't want to stop to breathe until the last boss died: Find a good guild. I'd be willing to bet that, no matter your server or play schedule, a decent guild
is
out there for you.
Post by
533681
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Quesac
Negative. Bad play is bad play. Forcing a group to compensate for a bad player is the wrong answer. By bad player, I don't mean a noob who is trying to learn, I mean a player who just doesn't listen/care.
By your reasoning, I can go in there with my Warlock and just stand there not doing any dps and if the group kicks me, they get punished because we never wiped.
Honestly is that likely? I mean maybe on pull 1 and 2. And what that is doing is slowing you down JUST a bit (say 100 seconds rather than 80 to clear it). But if a player is just standing still and not moving at some point you wipe because with the current gear level you really can't (yet) four man these. If we make the formula a convex curve then we could imagine that kicking after 1 wipe isn't a big penalty from the status quo.
And are you willing to live with the very rare abuser of this....who derives more pleasure from logging into a game and sitting inactive while others have fun if what it means is that we incent more civil behavior and cooperation?
So I am being force to incur a durability loss to my gear and a larger repair bill because I can't boot a player who is inevitably going to cause a wipe.
I am sorry if unclear but playstyle is NOT the issue. I could care less about that. I just think that is it not unrealistic (nor abnormal) to expect civility. And if you haven't noticed the decline since CAT launch you are not playing attention.
Yes I have noticed the decline in player attitudes in the LFG tool. Your fix only serves to reinforce them.
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