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The SV nerf
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Post by
HoleofArt
I stand by my
opinion
, hunter CC is superior.
Fixed, and you're wrong.
Post by
494341
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Interest
I stand by my
opinion
, hunter CC is superior.
Fixed, and you're on drugs.
Agree.
Lol'd at the fix.
Post by
Pezwar
Hunters are the only class that can CC any mob in the game (barring CC Immunity). Elementals. Humanoids. Dragonkin. Doesn't matter. Freezing Trap will hit anything, provided the skill of the firing hunter is sufficient. Marks can CC two for a brief period with the use of Readiness, and SV has shorter trap cooldowns, longer durations, and Wyvern Sting.
We have the best CC in terms of mob susceptibility. It's lackluster in terms of it's implementation. We've probably all had trap launcher glitch and not activate when we click it and not realize it, then proceed to drop a trap where you were standing, forcing you to wait 24 seconds to try it again. It sucks.
Would it be easier if we had the ability to "shoot" a trap at an enemies feet without aiming, making it more like other classes? Yes. But not necessarily better. Trapping is the only form of CC capable of LoS pulling for the tank. Lay one in the mobs path, run around the corner, then wait. Is it useful? Maybe, maybe not.
We have the most utilitarian of the crowd control abilities. It's also the most unique, relying on nearly the same trap mechanics that came out in Vanilla, only now we can put them anywhere within 40 yards. I, for one, like the uniqueness of hunter trapping.
Post by
Interest
Hunters are the only class that can CC any mob in the game (barring CC Immunity). Elementals. Humanoids. Dragonkin. Doesn't matter. Freezing Trap will hit anything, provided the skill of the firing hunter is sufficient. Marks can CC two for a brief period with the use of Readiness, and SV has shorter trap cooldowns, longer durations, and Wyvern Sting.
We have the best CC in terms of mob susceptibility. It's lackluster in terms of it's implementation. We've probably all had trap launcher glitch and not activate when we click it and not realize it, then proceed to drop a trap where you were standing, forcing you to wait 24 seconds to try it again. It sucks.
Would it be easier if we had the ability to "shoot" a trap at an enemies feet without aiming, making it more like other classes? Yes. But not necessarily better. Trapping is the only form of CC capable of LoS pulling for the tank. Lay one in the mobs path, run around the corner, then wait. Is it useful? Maybe, maybe not.
We have the most utilitarian of the crowd control abilities. It's also the most unique, relying on nearly the same trap mechanics that came out in Vanilla, only now we can put them anywhere within 40 yards. I, for one, like the uniqueness of hunter trapping.
Yes. It's nice and all. But I'd rather have it be a bit more restrictive and have no cooldown.
Also, Trap Launcher's skill cap is pretty ridiculous in comparison to other abilities. Unique? Yes. However, the novelty gets old after mobs keep unpredictably moving off your launched traps as they arm, ultimately forcing tactics like the Scattertrap. This doesn't mean Trap Launcher should be flat out removed. No. I actually do have uses for that version of Trap Launcher. However, there are some times when precision is needed but in such a sudden situation, we have to fiddle around with our macros or use multiple abilities while other classes often do not
The way you used the word LoS pull is completely wrong, btw. What you probably meant to say is it works in coincidence with LoS pulling, because any ranged can do a CC pull then LoS.
I just wished they'd spruce up how it worked more or less. It's not stopping me from using it or anything, but the point is our CC is hardly any more amazing than a Fear in the end, except it has that flavor "breaks if the enemy takes any damage" which shouldn't even be there, considering our CC also has a cooldown as well, meaning our CC was designed with practically a double standard, the only thing going for it the fact you can trap virtually anything that is vulnerable to CC.
I mean hell, Hex has a cooldown, and it has a break threshold as opposed to breaking on any damage.
Post by
298296
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Interest
We are one of the best CC classes there is.
No. We are not. We're not the worst, but we're definitely not the best either.
I didn't say THE best. Taking into account limitations to any cc class, we have a very decent lineup of available skills. Maybe not the best, but that's prob a good thing (see SV nerfs to dps). Being the best just puts you in limelight for nerfing.
Regarding Scare Beast: "Its frequent use may not be advisable" I would love a switch to the Glyph as well. More of a PvP talent and glyph system currently.
I find we're maybe middle of the line for CC.
Post by
talkingoat
Have a look at
StateofDPS.com
, Survival is currently coming out a little higher than 1K above it's nearest competition.
Please, look again.
400 dps.
Oh, and Unholy just got buffed. Just a heads up.
I decided to humor you and followed your link to take another look. Here's what I see for overall data:
Hunter - Survival: 19401
Rogue - Assassination: 18156
Death Knight - Unholy: 18217
Warlock - Destruction: 17891
Mage - Fire: 17450
Maybe if you are looking at specific fights that favor one class over another the results are different (I'd expect them to be), however in terms of overall data survival in over 1K above it's closest competition.
When you read the Unholy Patch Notes I wouldn't exactly say they are receiving buffs. They are getting nerfed as well if anything. You need to read them carefully though cause they are worded a little strangely (maybe to limit the QQ hoping that people mis-read the notes?). I'd consider these changes to Unholy nerfs:
Dark Transformation now increases pet damage by 80%, down from 100%.
The ratio of runic power return from Magic Suppression has been reduced by roughly one third.
Rage of Rivendare now increases strike damage by 12/24/36%, down from 15/30/45%.
Shadow Infusion now increases pet damage by 8% per stack, down from 10%.
Unholy Might (passive) has been reduced to a 5% Strength increase, down from 10%.
I guess what we can say (and what we've seen over the past couple of days) is that stuff on the PTR can change so even what we see today isn't necessarily going to be what we see hit live.
TLDR: Blizz are obviously still playing around with the numbers. No point getting overly emotional until we see what changes go live.
Post by
HoleofArt
Hunter - Survival 22190
Death Knight - Unholy 21781
400 dps. I wish I knew what the hell you are talking about.
Edit: And yet their Mastery now buffs almost 100% of the damage they do. That's a pretty big overhaul. The damage they lose from their pet won't be noticed.
Post by
Pezwar
The way you used the word LoS pull is completely wrong, btw. What you probably meant to say is it works in coincidence with LoS pulling, because any ranged can do a CC pull then LoS.
Yes, any ranged can do a CC pull. That's not the point. We're the only class that can initiate a LoS pull with CC, from around a corner, exposing absolutely no one to danger. How is that an incorrect use of LoS? We're pulling groups out of line of sight, forcing them to run to us.
LOS pull / Corner pull
When the mob group contains ranged damage dealers, very frequently the "round the corner" pull is used. After drawing aggro, the puller runs around a corner or behind some obstacle, so that the mobs can't see him any more. They follow and thus come close enough for the party to attack them. In this situation it is imperative that the party keeps strict discipline and does nothing to aggro any mobs while they are still moving. While waiting for the mobs to come, it is also common that the tank lays down some kind of temporary AoE-effect (such as or Death and Decay) which immediately generates more aggro on the mobs when they round the corner and step onto the AoE.
Huh...Sounds pretty similar to me.
Post by
335633
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
talkingoat
Hunter - Survival 22190
Death Knight - Unholy 21781
400 dps. I wish I knew what the hell you are talking about.
Edit: And yet their Mastery now buffs almost 100% of the damage they do. That's a pretty big overhaul. The damage they lose from their pet won't be noticed.
Figured out why we are quoting different numbers. You're quoting 25man figures so there's all the additional raid buffs. I'm looking at the 10man figures, less buffs, lower dps. Looks like hunters don't scale with raid buffs quite as well as some other classes.
The fact is in 10man raids survival hunters are averaging over 1K dps more than their closest competitor. But then, I think you already knew that.
Sounds like you're a little prone to exaggeration.
Unholy got nerfs and some buffs, in a similar way that we have. Who is better or worse off is really still open to debate and won't be clear until it all goes live.
A 5% drop in strength and 20% drop in damage done by pets is a pretty sizeable downgrade for unholy Death Knights, and pets (ghoul, gargoyle and even AoTD) form a significant percentage of an UH DKs damage.Check out some logs if you like. I picked the current top
unholy DK for the Argaloth
fight to look at as an example, here's his/her total damage done:
DK: 2,626,040
Ghoul: 1,609,715
Gargoyle: 115,847
Army of the Dead: 89, 234
So the DK did 2,626,040 total damage and his/her pets did 1,814,796 total damage. So over 40% of an unholy DKs total damage is done by pets. I'm quite sure that putting a dent in 40% of a DKs damage will get noticed. This reduction doesn't even take into account the reduction in strength from 10% to 5%.
Strength is by far the best stat for Unholy DKs so the 5% drop there is definitely a nerf.
Changing Mastery isn't a bad thing for Unholy as at the moment the stat is one of the weaker Unholy stats. Suggesting that it will buff 'almost 100% of the damage they do' is also exaggerating more than a little. A lot of the damage is also physical - some frost - and not all diseases are classed as shadow damage. So rather than buffing almost 100% of they damage they do, it could potentially, realistically, buff 35-40% of the damage they do.
You should head over to the DK forums and tell them that Unholy is getting buffed in 4.0.6 and see how that works out for you.
It's too early to say how harsh a nerf this all really is until it goes live. Most classes are getting changes positive and negative. Try and keep things in perspective and look at it rationally. Maybe the sky isn't falling in?
Post by
335633
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
HoleofArt
A 5% drop in strength and 20% drop in damage done by pets is a pretty sizeable downgrade for unholy Death Knights, and pets (ghoul, gargoyle and even AoTD) form a significant percentage of an UH DKs damage.Check out some logs if you like. I picked the current top
unholy DK for the Argaloth
fight to look at as an example, here's his/her total damage done:
DK: 2,626,040
Ghoul: 1,609,715
Gargoyle: 115,847
Army of the Dead: 89, 234
So the DK did 2,626,040 total damage and his/her pets did 1,814,796 total damage. So over 40% of an unholy DKs total damage is done by pets. I'm quite sure that putting a dent in 40% of a DKs damage will get noticed.
A dent? Sure. Not even close to the proposed "dent" that was being put into Survival Hunters.
Strength is by far the best stat for Unholy DKs so the 5% drop there is definitely a nerf.
I haven't argued against that. Survival lost 5% Agility as well.
Changing Mastery isn't a bad thing for Unholy as at the moment the stat is one of the weaker Unholy stats. Suggesting that it will buff 'almost 100% of the damage they do' is also exaggerating more than a little. A lot of the damage is also physical - some frost - and not all diseases are classed as shadow damage. So rather than buffing almost 100% of they damage they do, it could potentially, realistically, buff 35-40% of the damage they do.
It buffs all Shadow Damage.
Oh look, Shadow Damage
Not to mention they're also buffing the Shadow Damage portion of Scourge Strike. You're right, it isn't 100% of their damage, but it's a significant amount.
You might be right, they probably won't be "gaining" dps from this patch - however their lost pet damage is being compensated for with Shadow Damage. Just like Feral's lost Bleed damage for Direct Attack damage.
It's too early to say how harsh a nerf this all really is until it goes live. Most classes are getting changes positive and negative. Try and keep things in perspective and look at it rationally. Maybe the sky isn't falling in?
When was I not being rational? The Survival nerfs were too severe, and there was plenty of math to back it up, so they reduced it to a more justified point. I haven't argued against that.
Looks like hunters don't scale with raid buffs quite as well as some other classes.
The fact is in 10man raids survival hunters are averaging over 1K dps more than their closest competitor. But then, I think you already knew that.
Survival doesn't scale well
at all
. We don't gain a significant amount of DPS with each new tier of content with the way our shots work, where for melee they can see up to a 1k-2k difference in DPS by just upgrading their weapon. That isn't exaggeration. Going from a 333 to a 359 weapon is a huge gain compared to that change for a Hunter.
Survival Hunters just don't scale well, and there was math floating around awhile ago that showed most classes catching up to us when the gear increased. That's why I thought these nerfs were so frustrating. Blizzard panicked, and it showed.
Post by
talkingoat
When was I not being rational?
Somewhere around the time you were saying Unholy were getting buffs while QQing about how hard done by we are. Maybe rational wasn't the right word, maybe you just lost a bit of perspective. The big ticket nerfs amount to reducing black arrow damage by 15% (down from 25), Explosive Shot damage by 15% (down from 25) and the 5% agility loss. In that respect they can be seen as somewhat comparable to what we are seeing with the number two ranked DPS spec.
I can see that you enjoy an argument but back to reality. All classes are going up and down. It's happened before and it will happen again. I'm still of the opinion that the changes will not have as significant impact when they go live as all the doom and gloom might lead you to believe.
If it stresses you out that much take a break for a month or two and come back to the game when things eventually settle down.
Post by
HoleofArt
You keep acting like I'm flipping out or looking for an argument when I'm doing nothing of the sort. I'm not "doom and gloom" and haven't been after I saw Blizzard actually listen for once. I was pretty happy about that, actually. I'm not stressed at all, but you really keep trying to drive that point home. I don't get it.
while QQing about how hard done by we are.
We what?
And I said Unholy was being buffed after only the first round of notes were posted. It was a day before the updated notes were posted, as I had no clue to the Ghoul nerfs. All that was posted when I saw it was the changes to Blood, the stun immunity to Icebound Fortitude (or was it Pillar of Frost?), the 5% Strength nerf and the Unholy mastery changes.
My main point wasn't even that Unholy getting buffed, it was that there was a marginal 400 dps between the two specs, and Blizzard had originally intended to drop Survival Hunters down 2.5k-3k, while Unholy was staying roughly the same. I thought that was just a stupid thought process, because it was.
Post by
CrimzonEyed
My Arcane shots crits for a little more than 2k on lvl 70 (glyphed 12%+dmg) while explosive shot crit for 1500-1600. Then take 15% dmg from explosive shot and give it to arcane shot...
what shot will i use in next patch? XD
Post by
karlusdavius
Explosive shot.
Post by
Interest
The way you used the word LoS pull is completely wrong, btw. What you probably meant to say is it works in coincidence with LoS pulling, because any ranged can do a CC pull then LoS.
Yes, any ranged can do a CC pull. That's not the point. We're the only class that can initiate a LoS pull with CC, from around a corner, exposing absolutely no one to danger. How is that an incorrect use of LoS? We're pulling groups out of line of sight, forcing them to run to us.
LOS pull / Corner pull
When the mob group contains ranged damage dealers, very frequently the "round the corner" pull is used. After drawing aggro, the puller runs around a corner or behind some obstacle, so that the mobs can't see him any more. They follow and thus come close enough for the party to attack them. In this situation it is imperative that the party keeps strict discipline and does nothing to aggro any mobs while they are still moving. While waiting for the mobs to come, it is also common that the tank lays down some kind of temporary AoE-effect (such as or Death and Decay) which immediately generates more aggro on the mobs when they round the corner and step onto the AoE.
Huh...Sounds pretty similar to me.
Well actually I can pretty much do the same thing as a Mage. Poly, quick-turn, Blink.
Warlock? Fear + Demonic Circle Teleport
Guess I didn't explain it well enough, but we're definitely not the only ones capable of doing a LoS pull like that. Obviously with Misdirection and the fact traps have an arming time, we'd be more practical for that kind of thing, but it can be done as a non-Hunter. You claimed this was a trait absolutely unique to the Hunter class. It is not.
Trapping is the
only form
of CC capable of LoS pulling for the tank.
Just to clarify where that came from.
Post by
729411
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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