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My rant about fire mages
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Post by
delani
Look over my math storyr. There isn't less damage done, theres more. The increase for using 4:1 scorch:fire blast is actually .05% to .08% HIGHER damage done, in the same duration and same time, which translates to a DPS increase (if your doing more damage in the same time, then its higher DPS) AND your getting 4.25% HIGHER crits from it, which can translate to an even higher DPS increase from pyroblast!
Even if it was a .0000001% increase it is NOT a decrease, which is what you've been trying to tell me. So now that
I HAVE
provided numbers to back up my statement, lets see yours. You show me where it is a DPS decrease, because all you've done so far is tell me that because I don't raid noone will listen to me.
Oh, and EJ has taken me seriously. So by all means, compare my gear to whatever have you want. The math doesn't change at higher gear levels, 21% base mana is still 21% base mana, the spell coefficient is still the same, the only difference is how much Spellpower/int/crit/haste you have, and that only proved the point even more. They are already adding my proposed rotation to rawr to run the numbers more thoroughly..
And nickseng, I can tell mana is a non-issue from people like storyr saying they don't need to scorch weave as much during raid encounters, and the only reason to do scorch weaving is because he can DPS on the move to help out with certain mechanics.
And as per
this
link, it is confirmed that there is a possibility for a DPS gain with the improved fire blast talent, as per my calculations.
Post by
752192
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
storyr
.08% damage isn't worth losing 2 talent points in ANY fire spec.
Post by
delani
.08% damage isn't worth losing 2 talent points in ANY fire spec.
Oh, so now its not worth the talent points, even though the additional crit will factor out to MUCH higher then .08% damage, as a 1.6% crit increase (about 2 additional crits per rotation) will cause more pyroblast! procs.
The easy solution is to drop a situational survivability talent, to get a situational DPS increase talent, like this
spec
does but hey, its players choice right? That is exactly what EJ is saying, and any DPS increase that your not taking just means that when someone does take it they will be doing more DPS then you, and your not doing everything in your power to squeeze out all your possible damage.
As per
this
link, your base mana regeneration in combat is 5% of your base mana mp5, which for a mage is 870 mp5. While casting fire blast, once every 8 seconds, with its crit rate, your looking at spending (((((17,413 *.21) *.67) * crit chance) + (17,413 * .21) * noncrit chance)/8 to get the mana per second) * 5 to get the mana per 5 seconds), which at 33% crit chance for fire blast, your looking at spending (((((17413 * .21) * .67) * .33) + (17,413 * .21) * .67)/8)*5) or 2,036.57mp5 so with base regen accounted for, your spending 1,166.57mp5. Now, Blessing of Might/Mana Spring Totem gives you 326.57 mp5, so your spending 840.57mp5.
Now, for reference, fireball, at 25% crit rate spends (((((17,413 * .12) * .67) * .25) + (17,413 * .12) * .75)/2.5(base cast time, to get mana spent per second))*5 to get mana per 5 seconds) or about 3,834.34mp5 - 1196mp5 = 2,638.34mp5.
840.57 / 2,638.34 = .31 or about 31%, so using the 4:1 chain, your spending about 1/3 the mana you could've spent on fireball instead (compared to using the pure scorch chain) meaning for every 3 rotations (about 24 seconds) you lose 1 fireball.
Now, once you factor in the base mana cost reduction on the PTR, the equation for fireball changes to (((((17,413 * .09) * .67) *.25) + (17,413 * .09) * .75)/2.5)*5) or about 2,875.76 mp5 - 1196mp5 = 1,679.76 mp5.
840.57 / 1679.76 = 50%, so using the 4:1 chain your spending about 1/2 the mana you could've spent on fireball instead, meaning for every 2 rotations (about 16 seconds) you lose 1 fireball.
So in order for it to negatively impact your fire ball spam, you would have to be moving more often then your standing still, but as my 4:1 chain does more overall damage while moving then the pure scorch spam, your just better off using it then not.
Post by
Phaleux
Cauterize has gotten me more dps than Improved Fire Blast can hope to over 100 fights.
Sure you shouldn't ever need cauterize if you healers don't fail, and if you don't fail to get out of the fire, but sometimes it happens, especially when your guild is learning fights.
Post by
delani
Which is why its situational. Both talents are, ones is survival based, the other is damage based.
In order for Cauterize to get you more DPS then Improved Fire Blast you have to use less then 840mp5 on it. Which means either your not using mana shield + mage ward to save yourself and relying on your healers to save you, or your popping ice block and quickly deactivating it to continue DPSing. If you are using Ice Block to clear the debuff, then why didn't you just Ice block the damage to begin with, thus eliminating the need for Cauterize. If you are using mage ward + mana shield to save yourself from Cauterize your using more then 840mp5 on it, thus that mana could be spent on my 4:1 rotation, and become a DPS increase.
If your relying on your healers to save you from Cauterize killing you anyways, then chances are you didn't need Cauterize to begin with, as your healers have fast enough reaction times to prevent Cauterize from procing to begin with.
Post by
Phaleux
All it takes for cauterize to get me more dps is for it to save me from a death that otherwise would have occurred, because all the damage done after is bonus. Which HAS happened, even with ice block and mage ward.
Post by
delani
I don't think your quite understanding.
While yes, a dead mage is doing 0 DPS, but Cauterize will kill you anyways after it procs unless you do something to either absorb or heal 8.1% of your hit points. Its not going to save you for anymore then 6 seconds if you don't clear the debuff, or prevent the damage its doing.
Read the tool tip:
Cauterize
You have a 100% chance that an attack which would otherwise kill you will instead bring you to 40% of your maximum health. However, you will burn for 12% of your maximum health every 1.5 sec for the next 6 sec. This effect cannot occur more than once per minute.
Which means, it puts you at 40% hp, then slaps a DoT that deals 48% of your hp to you over 6 seconds. (6/1.5 = 4, 12% * 4 = 48%) So if you do nothing to remove the debuff, you die anyways.
That is what I mean by being a DPS increase only if your spending less then 840mp5 to save yourself, or relying on your healers to save you. Because if your spending more mana to save yourself, or relying on your healers to save you, then your better off grabbing Improved Fire Blast for the DPS increase because your either going to die anyways, waste too much mana trying to save yourself, or fall back on your healers, which really limits the usage of Cauterize.
A dead mage does 0 DPS, but a mage with 0 mana from spending it all saving themselves from dying, is still doing 0 DPS.
Post by
Phaleux
I understand the mechanic. I think what has happened the most is sloppy healing (where late heals save me from the DoT) or other instagib mechanics (like someone accidentally nuking the group with Engulfing Magic.
I have seen it happen multiple times on multiple different boss fights, and definitely enough to convince me that it is an awesome talent to have, at least in my guild. Maybe your guild has better healers, or people who pay more attention during stuff like Engulfing Magic than mine does. Either way, not enough to worry about trying to eke out a small improvement of my movement based dps.
Post by
delani
Ok, that i can agree with. In the event where its actually saved your life, (i/e engulfing magic nuking the raid) and the healers have been able to recover enough to prevent you from dying anyways, then i can see the value.
My guild pretty just has the stance that if you do something stupid and die, you get to stay dead. And my healers wouldn't attempt to save me from cauterize if i did something stupid to make it proc. Kinda a sink or swim policy so cauterize wouldn't have much value for me, as it would only proc if something stupid happened, and then i'm dead either way.
Post by
storyr
EDIT:
Nevermind, I am completely removing myself from this thread because delani does not understand anything. How can you explain something to someone who has never even been in any raids on a mage?
Post by
752192
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
karlusdavius
Crit is RNG
Flat out consistently more damage beats RNG anyday, especially a measly 8%.
In addition, Delani has done highly limited content in terms of heroic dungeons (3 listed). The only raiding you have ever done is Ulduar. Your spec and glyph choices are highly inefficient (both specs).
It stands to reason that you have no clue of what a real burn/movement phase is. If you have, then your character sheet does not reflect it.
Scorch has a higher co-e. get DR damage and check it yourself. The only time FB will be better is when you have adds and DoT's need spreading.
Post by
storyr
Crit is RNG
Flat out consistently more damage beats RNG anyday, especially a measly 8%.
In addition, Delani has done highly limited content in terms of heroic dungeons (3 listed). The only raiding you have ever done is Ulduar. Your spec and glyph choices are highly inefficient (both specs).
It stands to reason that you have no clue of what a real burn/movement phase is. If you have, then your character sheet does not reflect it.
Scorch has a higher co-e. get DR damage and check it yourself. The only time FB will be better is when you have adds and DoT's need spreading.
I hope you've read the entire thread.
Incoming critting wall of text with actual spells linked and math proving losing two talents points will you give you a meastly 0.08% increase in a movement rotation with Fireblast despite high base mana cost and a GCD dump.
Trust me, it's pointless.
Post by
delani
Concerned about the 8% damage...use some brain cells and overcome the mechanic. You don't need a Healer to survive and you don't need to waste mana. Need an example?
If Cauterize pops and you are below 50% mana (the closer you are to 40% the more efficient this is) use your glyphed Evocation to save you and take you back to full. Takes a few seconds...saves your life...and caps off your mana with zero waste of a CD.
If Cauterize pops and Evocation is one Cooldown or it's not efficient to use (say early in a fight) pop a Mythical Healing Potion or use a Heavy Embersilk Bandage to give you a good solid 10k.
I thought this would be common sense....
I'll give you glyphed Evocation, as long as the DoT from Cauterize won't interrupt the channeling of evocation (which i'm pretty sure it doesn't)
And while the potion would work, assuming its not already on cooldown (as people still do the double pot trick, so you could pop a volcanic potion before your in combat, and have a cooldown left over) I'm pretty sure the DoT would cancel out the bandage before it heals enough hit points to matter.
And even if it does heal over the 8% hit points that is needed to keep Cauterize from killing you again, your still at a very low hit point value, and ANY AoE damage is going to kill you anyways. Cauterize has its uses yes, but to claim it is a DPS increase because it saves you just doesn't work as after it saves you, it then puts you on the fast track to dying again. 6 seconds isn't very long, and I'm sorry, but I don't like having a set time frame on death, especially right after facing it.
EDIT:
Nevermind, I am completely removing myself from this thread because delani does not understand anything. How can you explain something to someone who has never even been in any raids on a mage?
I don't understand anything? Yet I've provided ALL the math to prove my point and you still argue it? Not just were you the loudest person to tell me because my
gear
was bad that i can't possibly know anything, but when i actually asked you for said information to back up your claim you were unable to provide it.
Then when
I
provided it, you said it still wasn't worth it due to lack of talents points, and when i make a claim that its a toss up between a situational (yes situational, as your not going to commit suicide just to proc Cauterize, so you have to be in a certain situation in order for it to proc, thus it is the text book definition of
situational
) survivability talent, and a situational DPS increase talent, you start going off on how my lack of raid experience actually matters.
I have raided before, Karazhan in BC, Naxx, Ulduar, Malygos, Vault of Archavon, and Obsidian Sanctum in Wrath. I haven't raided much else due to real life, but I know what its like to have to coordinate 10 or more people around and get things working together, I know how things mesh, and I know that each raid encounter just boils down to a big bag of hit points with a new bag of tricks. Its not hard to read up on things and go 'well, standing in the fire is bad' and then actually doing it. I'm sorry I don't have the available time to go out and raid ASAP, but as others have stated change doesn't always come from the top.
I get it, you hate people like me that come into this forum and ask questions about things they can't possibly know. But get this, I proved it worked. I proved its an increase, I proved you wrong, so by all means, leave the thread, but at the end of the day I was right. Be sure to remember that next time you tell someone to lrn2raid.
Post by
delani
Crit is RNG
Flat out consistently more damage beats RNG anyday, especially a measly 8%.
In addition, Delani has done highly limited content in terms of heroic dungeons (3 listed). The only raiding you have ever done is Ulduar. Your spec and glyph choices are highly inefficient (both specs).
It stands to reason that you have no clue of what a real burn/movement phase is. If you have, then your character sheet does not reflect it.
Scorch has a higher co-e. get DR damage and check it yourself. The only time FB will be better is when you have adds and DoT's need spreading.
RNG is RNG, and while Storyr is great at poking fun at me, look over
this
. It balances out the RNG and shows you exactly what kind of an increase your looking at.
I love how the fact I've done limited content is such a factor. The math does not change the higher gear level you have. And while Scorch does have a higher Co-E then fire blast, its not by a whole lot, and fire blast starts out doing more damage. Heck, you need 3,700 spell power for Scorch to MATCH fire blast's damage potential.
Look over the math, look over the numbers, either way you look at it, it is in increase to do 4:1 scorch:fire blast over just pure scorch spam, especially when its only using 31% of the mana of your fireball spam, meaning you have to be moving for over 24 seconds to lose 1 fireball.
Post by
delani
I hope you've read the entire thread.
Incoming critting wall of text with actual spells linked and math proving losing two talents points will you give you a meastly 0.08% increase in a movement rotation with Fireblast despite high base mana cost and a GCD dump.
Trust me, it's pointless.
I don't think you've read the entire thread either, because the math actually takes into account the higher base mana cost AND the GCD dump. So by all means, keep making jabs, I'm still right, as you originally said it was a decrease, and stuck with that even after i pointed out it was an increase.
Post by
nickseng
Just adding my 2 cents into the whole discussion (again).
You've said your math indicates that taking improved Fireblast and using it increases dps by approximately 1.6%, correct? Well, another point of view I'd take is that you're taking 2 points of talent for 1.6% dps is actually a subpar talent. Technically, for a dps talent to be average, it needs to provide a 1% increase in dps.
This is why Arcane Concentration beyond the first point is subpar, since each successive point increases dps by less than 1%.
In the end, it comes down to where can you take 2 points from a standard fire spec to put into Imp. Fireblast for a 1.6% dps increase. I'd argue againts Cauterize, because though situational, it has kept me alive long enough for the healers to heal me (because I'm on a lower triage priority, so they might not be able to heal me before Cauterize procs), or for me to prevent my death through shielding and pots.
I know it's hard to see the worth in Cauterize, but I really challenge you to run some raids, or at least some Heroics with it, and see for yourself.
Post by
delani
Just adding my 2 cents into the whole discussion (again).
You've said your math indicates that taking improved Fireblast and using it increases dps by approximately 1.6%, correct? Well, another point of view I'd take is that you're taking 2 points of talent for 1.6% dps is actually a subpar talent. Technically, for a dps talent to be average, it needs to provide a 1% increase in dps.
This is why Arcane Concentration beyond the first point is subpar, since each successive point increases dps by less than 1%.
In the end, it comes down to where can you take 2 points from a standard fire spec to put into Imp. Fireblast for a 1.6% dps increase. I'd argue againts Cauterize, because though situational, it has kept me alive long enough for the healers to heal me (because I'm on a lower triage priority, so they might not be able to heal me before Cauterize procs), or for me to prevent my death through shielding and pots.
I know it's hard to see the worth in Cauterize, but I really challenge you to run some raids, or at least some Heroics with it, and see for yourself.
Its actually a minimal Damage increase (less then 1/10 of a percent at equal spell power) but the value comes in the 1.6% crit increase, which in theory can translate to more pyroblasts!. Without proper testing (as in, like 1,000 runs or so) I wouldn't be able to get a hard amount of DPS increase once you factor in pyroblast, but the math just indicate that it is an increase, compared to a decrease, which is what the majority of people were saying before i ran the numbers.
I can see the value in Cauterize, I really can, especially if you factor in pots, or glyphed evocation, the problem lies in it actually going off, without you doing something insanely stupid. EJ has mentioned using it to ignore one shot mechanics, and I can not for the life of me see the value in doing that, unless you know for a factor your healers are going to keep you from dying again. I just feel that a mages job is to DPS and deal damage, and any increase in the ability to do so is better then not having that increase at all. Matter of opinion really, and it all boils down to players choice.
The only reason I'm pushing so hard for my rotation is due to the fact so many people are complaining about fire's RNG factor, and I figure an increase in crit rates would help with that. Once I proposed the idea, I got so much resistance for it, that figuring out the math was the next step. After I did that, and found out it was indeed an increase (compared to the decrease almost everything was telling me) I wanted to make sure everyone understood that some non-raiding non-heroic running punk proved them wrong.
Post by
176080
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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