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My rant about fire mages
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Post by
nickseng
, the problem lies in it actually going off, without you doing something
insanely stupid.
.
I think this is the point that has gotten so many mages back up, the fact that you're asserting that unless you're
insanely stupid
, you won't need cauterize. Which you can see why when me and so many other mages have made use of it.
Raiding in Cataclysm is a lot different from before. We have a larger health pool now, much closer to that of the tanks. Because of that, we can afford to not be topped off since healer's mana are so much more precious than before, and they won't waste it on dps if we;re in no danger of dying.
It's not unusual for a dps (and it has happened to me before) to spend a majority of the fight around 40% hp throughout the second half of a boss fight. And since there are so many AOE's going around these days, sometimes all it takes is for some bad luck and you wind up dead. That's where cauterize comes into play.
I just feel that a mages job is to DPS and deal damage,
If that we're true, then it's perfectly fine for us to stand in fire and Healers to heal us through? In Cata, dps are somewhat responsible for their survivability. Healer mana is limited, and when bad stuff happens, we're usually on the bottem of the healing poll, right after tanks and healers. Anything that helps us survive more is good.
Now I'm now saying we should take survivability talents over blatent dps talents, but when said dps talents is only ~1.6% increase, then it's not that hard a decision to take (for me anyways).
Post by
delani
Something unexpected: hits mage for 131245 damage (33425 overkill)
Cauterize -> Iceblock
Combat res not used, mage still able to do dps.
------
Something unexpected hits mage for 131245 damage (33425 overkill)
Mage has died
Combat res not available, dead mage, no dps.
Yeah sure if you are so leet you never gets hit by random targetted abilities just after running out of the fire sure skip cauterize.
Aside from getting melee hit by a raid boss, the only attack that does more then 50k damage is
and it does less damage the more folks are affected by it, so if your taking 131k damage from anything it was probably player error, and you'll just die again within the cooldown on either cauterize, or ice block.
Post by
delani
I think this is the point that has gotten so many mages back up, the fact that you're asserting that unless you're
insanely stupid
, you won't need cauterize. Which you can see why when me and so many other mages have made use of it.
It's not unusual for a dps (and it has happened to me before) to spend a majority of the fight around 40% hp throughout the second half of a boss fight. And since there are so many AOE's going around these days, sometimes all it takes is for some bad luck and you wind up dead. That's where cauterize comes into play.
If that we're true, then it's perfectly fine for us to stand in fire and Healers to heal us through? In Cata, dps are somewhat responsible for their survivability. Healer mana is limited, and when bad stuff happens, we're usually on the bottem of the healing poll, right after tanks and healers. Anything that helps us survive more is good.
Now I'm now saying we should take survivability talents over blatent dps talents, but when said dps talents is only ~1.6% increase, then it's not that hard a decision to take (for me anyways).
I can understand that view point, and I didn't mean to come across as calling people insanely stupid to proc cauterize, just that ignoring one shot mechanics to let cauterize save you would be insanely stupid to try to do. Bad luck happens, and have a safety net to catch you is never a bad idea. I just don't want a safety net that can possibly let me fall anyways (if your pot, evocation, and ice block is on CD, you gotta burn mana to heal yourself, or atlest absorb the damage, unless the healers can get you back in order quick enough.)
It's not perfectly fine to stand in the fire and expect a healer to save you, and I do understand DPS being responsible for themselves, a lot of my guild tanks, even in heroics pretty much say 'you pull the threat, you can tank it' and laugh when dps gets killed over it. Just because I personally haven't raided doesn't mean I don't know whats going on. Healers mana is better spent on keeping the tanks alive, and then keeping themselves alive. DPS is low man on totem poll.
Like i said, matter of opinion really, and players choice.
Oh, and for those who keep mentioning the mana issue,
heres
a nice spreadsheet detailing the amount of mana your actually wasting on my 4:1 rotation.
Post by
176080
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
delani
Wasn't my point.
Sure take your DPS increase, I'll laugh all the way to the purples with higher damage done after you have been face down in the mud for the last 1/3 of the fight.
Your point was that when taking lethal damage, Cauterize will save you, and you can merely Ice Block right out of it to keep yourself alive.
My point is that there isn't much out there, that will do that much burst damage to you, and if what nickseng is saying is accurate, then most DPS stays under 50% health anyways throughout the fight. More often then not you know exactly when, and where incoming damage is about to smack you, and mages have so many other tools available to them to keep them up and running (you've already touched on one of them, being Ice Block) that a situational life saving talent is just that. Situational.
When it procs, and you actually survive the debuff, via either being healed, popping ice block, or merely hitting evoc, then yes, its probably a pure DPS increase, as any damage you take afterwards is damage you would've otherwise been dead for.
But, if your spending more then 840mp5 keeping yourself alive from Cauterize (due to healers being busy, and having to hit mage ward and mana shield) then your going to burn so much mana you won't be doing much DPS, especially if you have to repeat that same save later on during a fight (as Cauterize only has a 1 minute cooldown, yet Ice Block has a 5 minute cooldown.)
And while a dead mage does 0 DPS, a mage without mana does 0 DPS too. While we do have Scorch available to us for free, and Scorch weaving is a pretty viable way to renew mana, my rotation allows you to scorch weave, and pull more DPS. Keep Cauterize, grab those talent points from somewhere else, say Burning Soul. If all you plan on doing is scorching, because your so low on mana, then pushback won't be an issue, and you can rotate fire blast into your scorch spam, and get more DPS, without losing your life saving talent.
Post by
176080
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
karlusdavius
Crit is RNG
Flat out consistently more damage beats RNG anyday, especially a measly 8%.
In addition, Delani has done highly limited content in terms of heroic dungeons (3 listed). The only raiding you have ever done is Ulduar. Your spec and glyph choices are highly inefficient (both specs).
It stands to reason that you have no clue of what a real burn/movement phase is. If you have, then your character sheet does not reflect it.
Scorch has a higher co-e. get DR damage and check it yourself. The only time FB will be better is when you have adds and DoT's need spreading.
RNG is RNG, and while Storyr is great at poking fun at me, look over
this
. It balances out the RNG and shows you exactly what kind of an increase your looking at.
I love how the fact I've done limited content is such a factor. The math does not change the higher gear level you have. And while Scorch does have a higher Co-E then fire blast, its not by a whole lot, and fire blast starts out doing more damage. Heck, you need 3,700 spell power for Scorch to MATCH fire blast's damage potential.
Look over the math, look over the numbers, either way you look at it, it is in increase to do 4:1 scorch:fire blast over just pure scorch spam, especially when its only using 31% of the mana of your fireball spam, meaning you have to be moving for over 24 seconds to lose 1 fireball.
It matters a whole lot. You will find that the 4:1 spam your on about doesn't actually fit. You shouldn't be moving that much to hit 4 scorches. and 3,7k SP is easy to come by. hell, i'm close to even double that, so your point, based on your numbers, becomes moot.
Scorch beats fireblast.
Post by
752192
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
delani
It matters a whole lot. You will find that the 4:1 spam your on about doesn't actually fit. You shouldn't be moving that much to hit 4 scorches. and 3,7k SP is easy to come by. hell, i'm close to even double that, so your point, based on your numbers, becomes moot.
Scorch beats fireblast.
Look over the numbers. Scorch doesn't beat fire blast. The different between the damage values, ranges from 4%-2.3% at 5,000SP up to 8.8% to 7.6% difference at 9,000SP. But Fire Blast still has higher crit, which even when you account RNG, still pulls Fire Blast ahead. The true value is in the 1.6% increased critical strike chance, which can mean the difference between 25 expected crits, and 26.6 expected crits, or an increase of 6% more crits. Which will translate to more pyroblat! procs.
The math, and my calculator proved it. Keep arguing a point I've already proved. The increase Co-E from scorch doesn't make up for the increased crit that Improved Fire Blast provides.
Post by
delani
Wow...just unbelievable.
You were right all along Delani...all of our combined experience with this raid content is all bullsh_t and your spreadsheets and calculator are right.
Good luck.
I can't tell if this is sarcastic or not, so I'm just going to thank you for finally mentioning it. All it took was a little math, and thats exactly what noone else wanted to do.
Post by
317120
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
752192
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
karlusdavius
Look over the numbers. Scorch doesn't beat fire blast.
Stats - No Buffs were present, not even armor.
Spell Power: 5804
Haste: 8.29%
Crit: 20.71%
Mastery: 9.46
Scorch
Hit: 4844
Crit: 9650
Fire Blast
Hit: 4612
Crit: 8871
What numbers are you looking at? because there not the same as mine. I will be happy to post up a video on youtube showing me spamming both abilities and then looking at recount to see. this is unbuffed, therefore scorch will be doing MORE damage due to increase co-e.
To conclude, you have no @#$%ing clue.
also, stop posting different posts for responses, keep it in all in one post.
Post by
storyr
His argument is with 2 points put into improved fireblast it puts the crit of Fireblast 8% higher than scorch (3% than glyphed fireball) and that crit increase will give you more hotstreaks, thus improving your dps.
It's completely (and stupidly) situational.
Post by
vincistis
Fireblast isn't valuable to be used in a rotation without impact. Let it be known. I am king of magic things, Ezraked. My word is law. And I bind all mages with my word. Once again. My word is
LAW
, you shall NOT defy this.
Post by
delani
Look over the numbers. Scorch doesn't beat fire blast.
Stats - No Buffs were present, not even armor.
Spell Power: 5804
Haste: 8.29%
Crit: 20.71%
Mastery: 9.46
Scorch
Hit: 4844
Crit: 9650
Fire Blast
Hit: 4612
Crit: 8871
What numbers are you looking at? because there not the same as mine. I will be happy to post up a video on youtube showing me spamming both abilities and then looking at recount to see. this is unbuffed, therefore scorch will be doing MORE damage due to increase co-e.
To conclude, you have no @#$%ing clue.
also, stop posting different posts for responses, keep it in all in one post.
And how many casts is this for? And do you have Improved Fire Blast, because thats the main argument, in favor of Improved Fire Blast compared to Scorch.
Because over 100 casts, assuming you DO have Improved Fire Blast, that crit goes from 20.87% for Scorch to 28.87% for fire blast, so taking the same numbers you presented, you looking at
((9650*20.87)+(4844*79.13)) = (201,395.5) +(383,305.72) or 584,701.22 damage total for scorch
Now, that 80 scorch casts, and 20 fire blast with your crit, and improved fire blast giving fire blast 8% crit, your looking at 16.696 crits from scorch, and 5.774 crits from fire blast, so using your numbers you have
((((9650*16.696) + (4844*63.304))+((8871*5.774)+(4612*14.226)) = ((161,116.4 + 306,644.576) + (51,221.154 + 66,037.92) = 585,019.22
585,019.22 > 584,701.22 at lest last i checked... even if its not much of an increase...
Post by
delani
EDIT - Just to satisfy my own curiosity I ran a simple test.
Buffs: Dalaran Brilliance and Molten Armor buff only.
Stats: 4411 Intellect
6,501 Spellpower
16.95% Hit
5.37% Haste
24.6% Crit
11.88 Mastery
Test 1: Only casting Scorch and Pyroblast when the HS proc is up.
Test 2: Casting Scorch up to but no more than 4 times mixing in Fireblast after fourth cast...or as soon as it was available (due to Impact proc) and using Pyroblast at every HS proc.
3 Min. time frame since running a burn phase doesn't work with Scorch costing 0 mana.
Test 1:
10 Pyroblast procs over 3 minutes.
6659 DPS using Recount.
1305622 Total Damage done.
0 Mana spent
Test 2:
8 Pyroblast procs over 3 min.
6891 DPS using Recount
1311072 Total Damage done.
13,674 mana spent (15.69% of my total mana)
I allowed all Pyroblast ticks to burn off the dummy before stopping the Damage count...DPS count was taken from the 3 min. mark. This will reflect the DPS during the casting phase without calculating downtime that may throw off the results. The damage done was calculated using all Pyroblast DoT damage in it's full duration.
So based on this you are telling me that 5350 done on a boss is worth 15% of my mana bar?
Yep, thats exactly what I'm telling you. If you were actually following my 4:1 ratio, you would only use fire blast after using 4 scorches, as using it more often then that would be wasting mana to minimal gain, which if you used it whenever impact proced would skew the results even more. Now, taking into account you may have spammed more Fire Blasts then needed, your still doing about 3.36% MORE DPS, then about .415% more damage dealt. Now, taking into account your 3 minute time frame, which I'm pretty sure even the longest movement phase won't come even close to that, your only using 75.9 mana per second.
I'm also going to assume you've speced into Improved Fire Blast for you test, or else your results are even more skewed, as that is the basis of my entire argument.
His argument is with 2 points put into improved fireblast it puts the crit of Fireblast 8% higher than scorch (3% than glyphed fireball) and that crit increase will give you more hotstreaks, thus improving your dps.
It's completely (and stupidly) situational.
Its only as situational as a movement phase is during a boss fight, where you can not use fireball to begin with. I've already told you multiple times that if you can use fireball, then use fireball. But as you can't use fireball while moving, then the 4:1 rotation will amount to higher DPS and higher damage done, especially with hot streak adding to it.
Even Elitist Jerks is agreeing with my math and my statements, so by all means, keep arguing, I've already disproved your point and gone to people who have much more knowledge then you, unless you now want to tell me that you have more knowledge (due to your raid experience) then Elitist Jerks.
Now, to just recap on this entire argument here are some highlights:
You seem to forget that EJ is giving advice for raids. Feel free to Fireblast your little head off in heroics all you want. But if on raid bosses you are using fireblast for anything other than cleaving dots, you're retarded.
3% extra crit on a spell that does less damage that fireball anyway does not make losing a GCD or wasting 21% of base mana worth it.
Stop trying to argue about it, you're not helping yourself. We've been over this, the
ONLY
way fireblast is situationally better is if you are cleaving DOTs.
Is gear a sign of a good player? To an extent yes. Is your character history and raid achievements a sign of how far into raiding you've actually gotten? You're damn right it is. You are not a raider, no one gives a &*!@ about your opinion if you don't raid.
That's my point. You are wrong, stop arguing when you have no idea what you're talking about.
I don't care if
you
think it's better, there is solid proof that it IS NOT BETTER. So shut the hell up already. You are not creating some newly found information for mages that is going to revolutionize the way we play our class. As I said before, people like you sprout up every once in awhile thinking they're bringing something new to the table. You're not, this data has been analyzed and been gone over in the past and present of the best theorycrafting mages out there,
AND YOU ARE WRONG
Keep it up man, I am done explaining myself and the simple math to you.
The original discussion isn't about fireball, it's about using fireblast on the move vs using scorch on the move. Whether fireball or scorch you are still wrong.
I'll give you a simple answer about why people haven't responded to you on EJ. If it was viable, it would have been posted about. Just like I stated before, you are not bringing something revolutionary to the way us (meaning those who raid, not you) mages play our class.
Having just ran the numbers myself on a hypothetical movement chain consisting of 4:1 scorch:fire blast ratio in addition to your normal living bomb->pyroblast! here is what I've come up with. This is using the spell coefficients posted above for scorch and fire blast.
scorch has a 51.2% coefficient, and fire blast still has 42.86%. So at equal spell power levels, lets say 7k for simplicity sake, and at a 45% crit rate (factoring in Critical mass) and 100 casts, to make the math simple for crit factoring, and a 190% crit multiplier (150% base, + 40% with ignite)
scorch does 670-794 base damage, with 51.2% spell coefficient at 7k mana your looking at (51.2% * 7,000 = 3,584) added, so it increases the numbers to (670 + 3,584 = 4,254) to (794 + 3,584 = 4,378) damage. At a 45% crit rate, you’re looking at
(((4,254*290%)*45) + (4,254*55)) to (((4,378*290%)*45) + (4378*55) damage, or 789,117 to 812,199 damage over 100 casts.
Fire blast does 955-1,131 base damage, with 42.86% spell coefficient, at 7k mana your looking at (42.86* 7,000 = 3,000.2) added, so it increases the numbers to (955 + 3,000.2 = 3,955.2) to (1,131 + 3,000.2 = 4,131.2) damage. at 53% crit rate, due to improved fire blast, your looking at (((3,955.2*290%)*53) + (3955.2*47)) to (((4,131.2*290%)*53) + (4,131.2*47)) damage, or 793,808.64 to 829,131.84 damage over 100 casts.
Now, as you can't just spam fire blast as quickly as you can spam scorch, due to the cool down, let’s do a 4:1 ratio so 4 scorches to 1 fire blast which is about correct assuming lag, and GCDs. For those same 100 casts, you have 80 of them being scorch, and 20 of them being fire blast. same crit rates as before, 45% for scorch, 53% for fire blast.
So that means 80*.45 = 36 crits with scorch, and 20*.53 = 10.6 which we'll round to 11 crits with fire blast
(((4,254*290%)*36)+(4,254*44) + (((3955.2*290%)*11)+(3955.2*9) to (((4378*290%)*36)+(4378*44)) + (((4131.2*290%)*11)+(4131.2*9)) for a total of (631,293.6 + 161,767.68) = 793,061.28 to (649,695.2 + 168,966.08) = 818,661.28 damage which comes out to be about .05% to .08% better damage, thus better DPS, and you'll have on average 2 more (36+11 = 47 compared to 45 for straight scorch casting) crits per 100 casts, which leaves open more chances for hot streak.
I'm not saying it a huge gain, but the additional crits, could produce more Pyroblast!, and thus increase the DPS even further. And its all on the same GCD, in the same amount of time, just doing 4 scorches to 1 fire blast then maintaining living bomb and throwing your Pyroblast! as they proc.
.08% damage isn't worth losing 2 talent points in ANY fire spec.
The easy solution is to drop a situational survivability talent, to get a situational DPS increase talent, like this
spec
does but hey, its players choice right? That is exactly what EJ is saying, and any DPS increase that your not taking just means that when someone does take it they will be doing more DPS then you, and your not doing everything in your power to squeeze out all your possible damage.
As per
this
link, your base mana regeneration in combat is 5% of your base mana mp5, which for a mage is 870 mp5. While casting fire blast, once every 8 seconds, with its crit rate, your looking at spending (((((17,413 *.21) *.67) * crit chance) + (17,413 * .21) * noncrit chance)/8 to get the mana per second) * 5 to get the mana per 5 seconds), which at 33% crit chance for fire blast, your looking at spending (((((17413 * .21) * .67) * .33) + (17,413 * .21) * .67)/8)*5) or 2,036.57mp5 so with base regen accounted for, your spending 1,166.57mp5. Now, Blessing of Might/Mana Spring Totem gives you 326.57 mp5, so your spending 840.57mp5.
Now, for reference, fireball, at 25% crit rate spends (((((17,413 * .12) * .67) * .25) + (17,413 * .12) * .75)/2.5(base cast time, to get mana spent per second))*5 to get mana per 5 seconds) or about 3,834.34mp5 - 1196mp5 = 2,638.34mp5.
840.57 / 2,638.34 = .31 or about 31%, so using the 4:1 chain, your spending about 1/3 the mana you could've spent on fireball instead (compared to using the pure scorch chain) meaning for every 3 rotations (about 24 seconds) you lose 1 fireball.
Now, once you factor in the base mana cost reduction on the PTR, the equation for fireball changes to (((((17,413 * .09) * .67) *.25) + (17,413 * .09) * .75)/2.5)*5) or about 2,875.76 mp5 - 1196mp5 = 1,679.76 mp5.
840.57 / 1679.76 = 50%, so using the 4:1 chain your spending about 1/2 the mana you could've spent on fireball instead, meaning for every 2 rotations (about 16 seconds) you lose 1 fireball.
So in order for it to negatively impact your fire ball spam, you would have to be moving more often then your standing still, but as my 4:1 chain does more overall damage while moving then the pure scorch spam, your just better off using it then not.
So, first Storyr tells me its been tested and that it is a DPS decrease, yet won't provide any information regarding how it is actually a decrease. Then when i provide the math to display a increase, and even mention that EJ is taking me seriously, Storyr flip flops his argument and says its not worth it due to the talent points. I've already proved the math to work out, and as all the calculations have been tested by EJ to be accurate and viable, assuming you take Improved Fire Blast, then I really don't have a whole lot more to add. I've displayed spreadsheets that not just proved my math at the example I've spelled out, but then go on to display it at different SP and crit levels. Once I get the haste formula down, I'll even add haste factors into it.
I've already said it wasn't a huge gain, but as its not a decrease, it is viable, assuming you have the talent. I'm not going to argue every single target point a fire mage has access to, as it all boils down to players choice, and different raid mechanics. All I'm going to state is that If you have Improved Fire Blast, then running a 4:1 scorch:fire blast rotation (as in solid, 4 scorch per 1 fire blast, not spamming it every impact proc) then you WILL get a increase in damage done, DPS, and critical strikes. which WILL lead to higher hot streak procs.
Yes, you will burn mana as well, but the mana you burn is literally meaningless in the grand scheme of things. Your only going to be running that rotation while your moving, due to the fact that pure fireball spam is always better DPS, and you can't use fireball while moving. Unless your doing more movement throughout a fight then your standing still, then your going to have enough mana to keep up your fireball spam, even with the increased mana cost of the 4:1 rotation. Heck, at 65% base critical strike, your actually gaining mana using the 4:1 ratio, so its just as viable as pure scorch spam, and its doing more DPS/damage/crit. This is proved by
this
spreadsheet, looking at E33 and E34. Once that percentage hits a negative, your regenerating more mana then your burning, AND has the most mana you will gain from pure scorch spam is 1196MP5 due to base regen, anything higher then that amount means you'll just gain even more mana. Master of Elements can not proc from a free spell, like scorch, but it can proc from a spell that costs mana, like fire blast.
Post by
karlusdavius
Ok, let's recap.
You have done minimal HEROIC DUNGEONS.
Your spec is still way out of line for raids, it will just about pass for dungeons
Your glyphs are still not right
You have minimal enchants and gems
You have only ever raided ulduar, and not go far.
Yet you are preaching about movement phases in raids? Your 4:1 ratio doesn't hold any ground. You should not be moving for more than 3 seconds (2 scorches). Therefore, this WHOLE argument is moot, because the scenario just doesn't exist. Regardless of wether or not fireblast would crit more, it still does lower damage. Therefore when it does crit, i'm loosing out of ignite damage. In addition, even if it does proc HS, there is still a chance that that pyro will not crit. There is still a chance that HS will proc from the first two scorches i do, the 2nd and 3rd scorch i do or maybe even the 3rd and 4th scorch. Therefore, i have the result I'm after, why use fireblast after that?those two talent points instantly diminish in value when this happens even once.
Crit is RNG, i would rather go with scorch with a flat out increase in damage than rely on 8% crit. furthermore, in order to get that 8%, I'm loosing potential dps by taking talents from other places. Subsequently decreasing the value of that 8%.
A spreadsheet is not the be all and end all of world of warcraft. do the content before you start saying what you should be doing during a movement phase. 4 scorches just doesn't happen enough for you to warrant 2 talent points in a mediocre talent.
However, i applaud you for your attitude towards this. A post this long would have turned into a flame war on any other board. It's nice to see you sticking to your guns even if i do disagree. Big respect.
Post by
752192
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
delani
EDIT - Just to satisfy my own curiosity I ran a simple test.
Buffs: Dalaran Brilliance and Molten Armor buff only.
Stats: 4411 Intellect
6,501 Spellpower
16.95% Hit
5.37% Haste
24.6% Crit
11.88 Mastery
Test 1: Only casting Scorch and Pyroblast when the HS proc is up.
Test 2: Casting Scorch up to but no more than 4 times mixing in Fireblast after fourth cast...or as soon as it was available (due to Impact proc) and using Pyroblast at every HS proc.
3 Min. time frame since running a burn phase doesn't work with Scorch costing 0 mana.
Test 1:
10 Pyroblast procs over 3 minutes.
6659 DPS using Recount.
1305622 Total Damage done.
0 Mana spent
Test 2:
8 Pyroblast procs over 3 min.
6891 DPS using Recount
1311072 Total Damage done.
13,674 mana spent (15.69% of my total mana)
6659/6891 = 3.36% increase.. just fyi.
And haste doesn't affect the GCD, so haste doesn't throw anything out of whack. 4:1 works once you factor in lag, and other variables.
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