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A Game of Thrones

Post by CasperAkaTDC

Robb was one of my favorites, too... :'(

Rob + his wife were lots of people their favourites... (he wasn't my fav. but it was very close... Danny & Jon <3)

Read the link I posted:

Millions of Game of Thrones fans are feeling sadness, outrage, and, sure, some perverse excitement after watching Sunday’s episode titled “The Rains of Castamere.”

Post by Skreeran

I'm the oldest child in my family... ;_;

I bought my dad a sword....

Post by Haxzor

http://insidetv.ew.com/2013/06/02/game-of-thrones-author-george-r-r-martin-why-he-wrote-the-red-wedding/
omg that fatbearded prick... D':

YOU LEAVE GURM ALONE

Post by Patty

http://insidetv.ew.com/2013/06/02/game-of-thrones-author-george-r-r-martin-why-he-wrote-the-red-wedding/
omg that fatbearded prick... D':

YOU LEAVE GURM ALONE

He's like an evil santa. :)

Post by Gone

This is probably gonna seem unpopular coming right after the Red Wedding, but most of you guy already know, I never liked Robb or Cat all that much. Robb was a good military leader, and an ok ruler, but he wasn't Ned, and I think that's the real reason so many people attached themselves to him, is because that's who they wanted him to be.

A lot of people hated Cat because of how she treated Jon, but that wasn't why I dislike her so much. With her, and Robb, it's more that they have a pattern of making poor decisions, either out of selfishness, or naivety, that innocent people wind up paying the price for.

Trusting Littlefinger, freeing Jamie Lannister, trusting Theon Greyjoy, trusting Roose Bolton, marrying Jeyne Westerling (and Bizzaro Volanti Jeyne Westerling), beheading one of your most loyal bannermen rather than just keeping him in a dungeon till the end of the war then beheading him, not sharing his full plans with Edmure about luring Tywin into a trap and keeping him away from the Blackwater, etc.

Even the whole King in the North could be considered a bad idea, seeing as his father died trying to support Stannis.

Post by Haxzor

I despise Cat.

She is literally the reason for all the bad things.

Post by EluraE

I despise Cat.

She is literally the reason for all the bad things.

IF ONLY SHE HAD LOVED JON SNOW NONE OF THIS WOULD'VE HAPPENED.

Post by Gone

I despise Cat.

She is literally the reason for all the bad things.

I'd say it's a tie between her and Dane Cook...

Post by Gone

I tell you who I feel for is the dire wolf. RIP Grey Wind and his stupid $%^&ing name.

Post by Haxzor

Post by EluraE

I despise Cat.

She is literally the reason for all the bad things.

IF ONLY SHE HAD LOVED JON SNOW NONE OF THIS WOULD'VE HAPPENED.

not even that, she told Ned to go to KL, she captured Tyrion on a hunch, she released Jamie, she told Robb to go to the wedding.

That was a joke because of the scene with her and Tulisa where she was like I PROMISED DA GODS I'LD LOVE DA UGLY LIL BASTARD BUT I DIDN'T!

Post by Gone

she told Robb to go to the wedding.

To be fair, in the book she was very cautious about going to the Twins. Robb was the one who seemed to downplay the idea of Walder Frey acting against him.

Post by Patty

I despise Cat.

She is literally the reason for all the bad things.

Remember that time Catelyn poisoned Jon Arryn?

Remember when Catelyn pushed her own son out of a tower and planted Cersei's hair there?

Remember how Catelyn killed the king?

Remember when Catelyn decapitated Ned?

Remember when Catelyn killed Renly? (Although lbr, his death wasn't necessarily a bad thing)

Remember when Catelyn beat her own daughter in front of the court at King's Landing?

Remember when Catelyn urged Robb to send Theon to the Iron Islands?

Remember that time Catelyn organised the wedding of a century with Tywin Lannister?

Oh, and we can't forget how Catelyn gave birth to the Others. Of course.

Post by Gone

^ Took the comment way too seriously. Hax was obviously exaggerating to be humorous.

Post by Patty

Post by Gone

^ Took the comment way too seriously. Hax was obviously exaggerating to be humorous.Because Cat gets a !@#$load of hate and is, by fandom, mostly considered a worse person than Jaime and Tyrion Lannister. It's grossly misinformed (and most of those details were either influenced by other people or actually not bad decisions to make?) She's always disqualified as a character on the basis of her treatment of Jon (when the only real interaction between them in canon was when she was basically mourning her son and obviously not in the best place mentally), or a too caring mother, or just a stupid %^&*! who %^&*s everything up. And that just pisses me off to no end, as well as being partially oxymoronic.

Well first off, if you count Lady Stoneheart then she has done worse than Tyrion and Jamie put together. Even before that she did some fairly shady stuff. She tried to have Tyrion killed even after his trial, and after he saved her life. She also slit a mentally retarded child's throat. Yes she had reasons and excuses as to why she did these things, but so did Tyrion and Jamie have their own reasons and excuses for their crimes.

People hate her because, to them, she's just not a likable character. It's as simple as that. It's not about her treatment of Jon, or the fact that her decisions wind up ^&*!ing everybody else in the ass, it's just who she is. It's the same way you like Cersei, or I like Sandor. They're both bad people, we can agree on that, but to us, respectively, they're likable characters. So when somebody says they don't like Cat, they aren't saying she's a bad person, just that she's not a likable character.

You can't fault people for having an opinion, and really I don't see you changing anybody's mind on this one. I try, I really do, but I just can't get myself to like Cat as a character. I want to like her, but I just can't.

I also kind of notice you make it a sort of crusade to defend villains or unpopular characters, who are also women. So I have to wonder if that might be coloring your objectivity.

Post by Patty

Except it's not her decisions that always @#$% things up? Case in point, urging her not to send Theon Greyjoy to Pyke. Case in point, getting Frey on side in the first place so that Robb could even survive his first battle against the Lannisters and cross the Trident in time. Going to treat with Renly and Stannis to try and attain a peace between the three of them, and almost succeeding in an alliance with Renly. Granted, these decisions were after the war began, which she had a role to play in kickstarting, but still. Give her some credit. She also goes to King's Landing herself to try and get answers about Bran even though she hates leaving Winterfell, because she sees that as her duty - she's proactive at times and it's not like this always causes some massive problem to Catelyn's fault, basically. The fall out from all of these decisions were out of her hands, and it wasn't her decision that caused the problems.

It's easy for us to see where Catelyn was wrong, because we now know that Littlefinger orchestrated pretty much all the events that caused the war to begin in the first place, knowing Catelyn so well. She underestimated just how much he still loved her - enough to kill her husband and kick start a civil war.

Whilst she was definitely rash in deciding to arrest Tyrion, I feel like she's the only character who really gets called out on that? Arya is very similar to her mother in the regard that she acts on instinct and has a real thirst for vengeance, yet the amount of hate Catelyn gets for these qualities in contrast to Arya is disproportionate. I call out when Arya gets called a psychopath, too, though, because for some reason a lot of Sansa fans feel the need to qualify their love for her by bashing Arya (which misses the point of the Stark sister dynamic completely, lol, but that's another issue).

Also, it must be remembered that Cat's not the only character to underestimate the other players. Ned and Robb did, too. Yet again, they receive less hate for this.As do the Lannisters, later.

Additionally, the second paragraph... isn't true? The amount of times I've seen something like "I will never forgive Jaime Lannister for crippling Bran... I will never forgive Walder Frey for the Red Wedding... I will never forgive Joffrey Baratheon for chopping off Ned's head... I will never forgive Catelyn Stark for being so horrible to Jon" is surprising, actually, because one of these is not like the others. I understand the difference between likability and actual agreement with a character's morals, but I feel like a lot of fans try to make Catelyn into some bumbling idiot/wicked stepmother combo. Which just isn't true.

And... there's a different between having an opinion and making a judgement like "Catelyn is to blame for everything!" and/or "Catelyn is a stupid &*!@#!", because opinions can be wrong if they are categorically not supported by the text/evidence. Personally, if I was wrong, I'd rather know about it than not.

Also, with Stoneheart you have to be more lenient. If I recall correctly, Beric stated himself that you're less human each time you come back, and when you've been dead for as long as Catelyn was, well... she's basically only running on vengeance right now. The moral compasses that she had when she was still alive are almost completely gone, and that's out of her control. Jaime and Tyrion, on the other hand, were completely accountable for their actions in a way that Stoneheart isn't. Killing Jinglebell was obviously horrible, and should never have happened, but that's basically the only time she's ever been ruthless in the whole series, and she'd just witnessed her son die and was going through a complete mental breakdown.

I'm not getting into the whole issues of releasing Jaime debate because that really is subjective, but the decision made sense in some ways.

I get having favorite characters, and I get just disliking characters for seemingly random reasons. For example, even after his ADWD chapters, I will never really like Theon, I just feel a lot of pity for him. That's completely fine, and every fan's entitled to their own opinions. But just be fair, and remember the actual canon of events rather than twisting characters to fit your (possibly incorrect) interpretation of them.

inb4 she's just a fictional character/it's just a book series/whatever else. I'm fully aware.

Post by Skreeran

Cat reminds me of my own mom (I'm basically the Robb to my father's Ned and my mom's Cat), which is why the Red Wedding was so traumatic for me to read.

Post by Gone

Except it's not her decisions that always @#$% things up?I never claimed it was. I've always maintained that Cat and Robb #$%^ing up their kingdom was a team effort. Yes a lot of it was Robbs fault. Trusting Theon Greyjoy, trusting Roose Bolton, marrying Jeyne Wetserling, not telling Edmure about his plan to lure Tywin into a trap.

But that doesn't erase Cat's @#$% ups either. Say what you want about Littlefinger being a brilliant schemer, the entire rest of the realm seems to know he's a backstabbing weasel. Then there's also the things we've both already mentioned. Freeing Jamie Lannister, instigating the war by capturing Tyrion.

Arya is very similar to her mother in the regard that she acts on instinct and has a real thirst for vengeance, yet the amount of hate Catelyn gets for these qualities in contrast to Arya is disproportionate.You realize one of them is a child right? Which is kind of the point. Arya is rash and impulsive, and that's part of teh charm of her character. It doesn't fit as well on Cat. Plus the big difference is, Cat's decisions affect other people. As a pseudo ruler she has to think of other people besides herself. She captures Tyrion for her son, and doesn't bother to take a moment to think of the thousands of people that die because of this. Arya is on her own for the most part, her actions are self destructive, but the realm doesn't pay the price for them.

Ned and Robb did, too. Yet again, they receive less hate for this.
Because Ned was one of the most likable characters in the series, and Robb was a character that everybody clung to because they wanted him to be Ned. This all goes back to what I said about people liking or disliking characters for arbitrary reasons.

there's a different between having an opinion and making a judgement like "Catelyn is to blame for everything!

You're making too much out of that comment, he was obviously joking. It's like when somebody says Twilight gives you eyeball cancer, it's obviously not true, they're just capitalizing on something that's unpopular and trendy to make fun of.

Killing Jinglebell was obviously horrible, and should never have happened, but that's basically the only time she's ever been ruthless in the whole series, and she'd just witnessed her son die and was going through a complete mental breakdown.

And when Jamie pushed Bran out the window he was doing the only thing he could think of to protect his loved ones, and prevent a chain reaction that would plunge the entire kingdom into war killing tens, maybe hundreds, of thousands of people, with half of whoever survives starving to death during the winter.

Like I said, everybody has an excuse or a reason for the shady things they do, you can't point out Cats and then ignore Jamie and Tyrion's when making a comparison between her and them.

And no that wasn't it, she also tried to have Tyrion killed after he was found innocent at his trial.

Post by Gone

So I was reading about some of the ancient Persian Gods earlier, and two of them kind of reminded me of the show. The religion is called Zoroastrianism, it was one of the first ethically driven religions in the near east, founded around 600 B.C. it had two primary deities. There was Ahura Mazda, who embodied justice, goodness, and wisdom, and was refereed to as the God of light. The other was named Ahriman, who was the antipode of everything Ahura Mazda stood for, representing darkness, evil, and destruction.

Sound familiar?

A Game of Thrones

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