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Total Biscuit Quits WoW
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Post by
751416
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
lonewarrior
I never had heard of this person nor seen any of his videos, but he pretty much parallel my thoughts and post. He represents the dieing voices of those players who loved BC type contents and raiding.
Someone who had the capacity to see the game/community from multiple perspectives instead of just a "me only" one. I knew Blizzard wouldn't hold to their guns.
Using only my own guild and familiar friends as reference, most of the people quitting are my longest playing members(pre-wrath). I guess the Nexus of Pre-wrath/wrath babies that Cata created caused too many grievances for older players to tolerate anymore.
The "wrath babies" have gained too much
momentum
for Cata to have been able to turn the trend around in regards to play style as the next patch bares out.
If you're playing with friends, why would any of this matter?
I corrected my own misspell.
It matters because I'm still a part of a larger community. You can't build something good from a short sighted perspective. Even though someone is a total stranger, there well being and progression makes everything indirectly better for me and the community.
As for my guildmates and in game friends quitting, these were very good players that when you que for LFD, would make your run productive. Now they are being replaced by the numnuts that have caused so much consternation.
The fact that you asked why does it matter, unfortunately reveals the underlying train of thought that is becoming the norm in this game.
It's not the big obvious things, but the little things that quietly chip away at a game.
I posted pre-Cata that making something easier just a person lazier.
Why swim across a river when you can paddle a boat. Why paddle a boat when you can drive across the bridge.
But what happens when you come to a river and there is no bridge and no boat and you never learned to swim since it wasn't necessary. You end up stuck, drowning or waiting for someone to build a bridge.
It's the natural course of things to take the path of least resistance. Players will only put into this game what is necessary to get to the next progression level. But as in my analogy, eventual you meet up with current endgame and then you have people who didn't learn to CC, get out of fire,etc etc because they didn't have too. Pugs crash and progression stalls not just for the baddies waiting for Blizz to build them a bridge(aka nerf) but for the community by and large.
How often do I have to cite how bad things got at the end of Wrath. Each new crop of leveled 80's learned poorer skills because it wasn't necessary for them to play any better. Yet Blizz threw all of them into ICC endgame so they could get the latest tier gear. Well not only did they not get it but they killed enough raids to have prevented such progression for many good causal players not in a hardcore raiding guild.
Let me end my post with an Einstein quote as it pertains to repeating in Cata what they did in Wrath.
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
Post by
lonewarrior
To Reddwarf...I use the term Wrath babies a lot for players who came after TBC, but your one of the few who seems to get it. :). Cheers to you.
What I have tried to express is that if you never define a level of difficulty, then you will never find one.
If every subsequent level of players that comes into endgame is less prepared then the previous, then all Blizzard is going to continue doing is to erode the skill the level needed to progress. Today it is players like myself or TB who are beefing about it, the next time it will be those self same people who are now our detractors. It will get to the point where Blizz won't even attempt to produce a difficult raid, they will introduce them with the nerf already incorporated. Is this what the majority of WoW players wants...bogus feeling of accomplishment. Is this game targeting 5yr olds?
As for finding a way to not make old tier raids obsolete, how about if Blizz could increase the amount of loot drops in older raids when new tier level contents was introduced.
So for example using WotLK:
Naxx 10man =2 drops Nax25=4
New tier contents
Ulduar 10man=2 Ulduar 25man=4
Naxx 10man=3 Naxx 25man=6
New tier contents
TOC 10man=2 TOC 25man=4
Ulduar 10man=3 Ulduar 25man=6
Naxx 10man=4 Naxx 25man=8
Now wouldn't this set up have preserved contents progression for late comers and casuals without obsoleting/nerfing old contents and yet still giving them the time to progress to end game ICC contents. Players learning proper raid ethics(aka not skipping on one wipe), mechanics(move out of fire)..etc etc. Instead we ended up with everyone deserving or not thrown into ICC.
Now back in TBC there were often time when to kill an evening, I would join a Kara pug run long after I had progressed past it.
I didn't mind helping out the community to progress. It was a good way to scout out recruits and find new friends. That died mid-Wrath. It's these little thing, no longer a part of the game, that slowly unravels the community bonds.
Post by
138638
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
734205
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Porcell
I agree with totalbiscuit on this completely, the whole the previous tier is worthless mentality is a major factor that made me quit.
Whose fault is a "mentality?" The person who holds that opinion. The previous tier isn't any more "worthless" than any previous iteration in the history of WoW. The only difference is that Tier 6 in TBC has such a SMALL SMALL SMALL percentage of players actually doing it at level.
With the introduction of 10 man "real" raids in Tier 7, special activation hardmodes in Tier 8, zone toggle hardmodes in Tier 9, and then individual boss toggle hardmodes in Tier 10, we have now finally gotten to the situation where we have easy mode 10 man and 25 man raids that are EXTREMELY accessible to those player who wish to participate in a raiding endgame, AND we keep the difficulty that was Tier 6 and Sunwell era TBC by having hardmode encounters that challenge raiders.
It sounds like a lot of people don't like easy-mode raiding to be accessible to players. I do not understand how people can have that opinion.
In BC there were people with a decent amount of T5 gear who still went to some of the previous dungeons, mostly Gruul's lair and Zul'aman because some of the things there were still good specifically the
Gruul and ZA shields
And people who don't have 353 or 359 gear will be running Tier 11. People with alts will be running (and pugging) Tier 11. Yeah, once ICC was released people weren't going back to Ulduar for gear, but there were still a LOT of people running ToCs. Even once Firelands is out, I think there will be a lot of people running Tier 11; and with the nerf and the expected return of PuGs, it might end up that Tier 11 is run just as much as it is now.
I personally think a few things could be done to help ease the "Tier X is obsolete because Tier Y" is out mentality, for one why must all your gear be obvious upgrades from tier X to Y, why can't a certain shield found in a raid be superb and another shield found in the next raid also be great however it is itemized in such a way that its up to preference and the previous Tiers shield is still desirable to some and not to others.
Because it would be hella frustrating if I go into Firelands and a 378 shield drops and it is not better than my 359 shield. However, what you are proposing, I completely expect to happen with 378 vs 372 gear. In come cases I'll probably stick with my 372 gear that is better itemized. So there you go, what you are proposing will already likely happen.
Or why must all the tier armor be found within a single neat dungeon. If memory serves in TBC T5 gear (SSC and TK) both had parts of the tier armor tokens so if you wanted the full set you had to do both, and even though T5 was already out they later released ZA a T4 dungeon that for tanks had a decent shield which some people preferred to what T5 had which made some people raid back a tier.
Well, current tier is split just like T5 was. The difference with Firelands was that it was supposed to be a split with Abyssal Maw, but they changed their mind and decided to focus fully on just Firelands. So all the Tier is in just the one instance; oh well.
Post by
HoleofArt
Well, current tier is split just like T5 was. The difference with Firelands was that it was supposed to be a split with Abyssal Maw, but they changed their mind and decided to focus fully on just Firelands. So all the Tier is in just the one instance; oh well.
Problem is, is that they're shoe-horning us into the 1 raid per tier that Blizzard specifically stated they didn't want to do originally. That, coupled with the previous content becoming almost completely obsolete (the flaw in your post is that 359 gear is available from Heroic dungeons and you won't need T11 for much of anything when ZA/ZG drops the rest), I can understand why many feel that there isn't much of a point, and why many are bored.
Post by
91278
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Porcell
The previous tier isn't any more "worthless" than any previous iteration in the history of WoW
It is when they nerf it to the point where, even in Heroic blues, none of the fights is a
challenge
.
Normal modes haven't been a challenge since December. The challenge is more in learning the fights than in the gear you use; it always has been.
I guess that people disagree that raiding should be available for everyone. Everyone exalts the TBC model, but the TBC model was very restricted on who could actually raid in the current max tier. It was nice for the good players in good guilds who were doing BT and Sunwell, but it was frustrating for others who were trying to break out of KZ and had to struggle with SSC / TK.
Raiding is already much more accessable, there are probably about 800 people on my server who are 12/12 normal mode or better. Back in TBC? We had maybe 2 or 3 guilds that were doing BT when it was progression. Why would we want to go back to something like that?
Problem is, is that they're shoe-horning us into the 1 raid per tier that Blizzard specifically stated they didn't want to do originally.
They didn't want to do it originally, sure, they'd love to have 12 raids per tier; it just doesn't work like that. There's already been blue posts about why this is "only" 1 raid and why there are "only" 7 bosses.
That, coupled with the previous content becoming almost completely obsolete (the flaw in your post is that 359 gear is available from Heroic dungeons and you won't need T11 for much of anything when ZA/ZG drops the rest), I can understand why many feel that there isn't much of a point, and why many are bored.
Many are bored because we've been doing the same content for 6 months now. We -always- get bored after running the same raid for 6 months. Before ToC came out we were really bored with Ulduar. After just four months in ToC we were screaming for ICC because we were bored. ICC ran for nearly a full YEAR before Cataclysm was launched; talk about burnout. By mid-summer I had enough of ICC.
And BWD/BoT aren't going to be completely obsolete, not even -nearly- obsolete. I foresee all kinds of people running the place, especially after the nerf. I can't wait for the PuGs to start back up so I can raid on my alts.
Post by
Interest
Normal modes haven't been a challenge since December. The challenge is more in learning the fights than in the gear you use; it always has been.
Which is still a problem because the fights have been nerfed. There's a good chance the experience will be different. Say X "insta-kill mechanic" no longer kills, or standing in Y "bad thing to stand in" doesn't kill you quite as fast. People will treat what was once a threatening mechanic as something they shouldn't care so much about. Is that really how other players should experience content? Should they just have an even easier time (and this is already considering the fact 359s will be purchased with JP!) and learn less about raid mechanics in general? It'll just keep them in the rut of never improving, by TB's argument, because content will just be nerfed down to their level. Why not just transcend mediocrity instead?
Post by
xaratherus
Is there a list of the mechanics nerfs that are coming through?
I'm part of the club that feels that the content should be available to a larger audience, but at the same time I tend to agree with Interest that altering the fight mechanics really isn't the way to go about it. But at the same time, depending on how the mechanics will be altered might make the nerf not as bad as I could initially picture.
Seems like it would just be easier to lower the boss's health and damage rather than alter the fight mechanics; then the fight is - well, not necessarily easier, but more forgiving.
Post by
Rankkor
Meh, TB needs to grow a thicker skin, he complains about raids being nerfed, and 4.2 having little bosses as if this was all new to wow.
ICC was nerfed by 30% and was the only content avaliable for pretty much a full year, and yet the game didn't ended.
Sunwell had only 6 bosses, was the only content for also a year, and was nerfed by 20% prior to WOTLK's launch.
ToTC had only 5 bosses as well, and with the advent of 3.3 and everyone plus their mothers having a full set of tier 9 it became a piece of cake too.
What exactly is new here? raids are allways hard at launch, then become absurdly easy later. Either because the devs nerf them, or because the newer gear makes them obsolete. This isn't new, or anything like that, nor has this broken the game in the past.
Him over-reacting to this and rage-quitting seems kinda like a child trowing a tantrum.
Post by
Karrie
Total Biscuit Quits WoWIt's over. Cancel your subscription. Sell your gold and your characters. Jump ship while you still can, because WoW is done for! The world of Warcraft will never be the same with the loss of this valuable and respected member of the community.
Post by
Interest
Is there a list of the mechanics nerfs that are coming through?
I'm part of the club that feels that the content should be available to a larger audience, but at the same time I tend to agree with Interest that altering the fight mechanics really isn't the way to go about it. But at the same time, depending on how the mechanics will be altered might make the nerf not as bad as I could initially picture.
Seems like it would just be easier to lower the boss's health and
damage
rather than alter the fight mechanics; then the fight is - well, not necessarily easier, but more forgiving.
I was referring to the damage nerfs as an effective mechanics change. It teaches players that they can stand in fire longer without dying and incorrectly position the boss without as much penalty and the like. That doesn't really teach them how to play, to be honest.
Post by
Sweetscot
Which might allow people running in high latencies to survive the fire long enough for them to see it and move.
Post by
xaratherus
I was referring to the damage nerfs as an effective mechanics change. It teaches players that they can stand in fire longer without dying and incorrectly position the boss without as much penalty and the like. That doesn't really teach them how to play, to be honest.
Which might allow people running in high latencies to survive the fire long enough for them to see it and move.
I have to sort of lean toward Sweetscot. There are only a few fights that are absolutely dependent on immediately moving 'out of fire' - LK as an example, or (not to as much of an extent) Chimaeron.
If they nerf the fight to the point where they can just stand in it with no penalty, then you're right Interest - that's reinforcing bad behavior - but is that going to be the case? It should be possible to adjust the fight to make it more forgiving while not making it a complete reinforcement of bad raiding behavior.
Post by
Orranis
I was referring to the damage nerfs as an effective mechanics change. It teaches players that they can stand in fire longer without dying and incorrectly position the boss without as much penalty and the like. That doesn't really teach them how to play, to be honest.
Which might allow people running in high latencies to survive the fire long enough for them to see it and move.
I have to sort of lean toward Sweetscot. There are only a few fights that are absolutely dependent on immediately moving 'out of fire' - LK as an example, or (not to as much of an extent) Chimaeron.
If they nerf the fight to the point where they can just stand in it with no penalty, then you're right Interest - that's reinforcing bad behavior - but is that going to be the case? It should be possible to adjust the fight to make it more forgiving while not making it a complete reinforcement of bad raiding behavior.
I completely agree with Interest. Instead of making Shadow Nova do less damage, give it a longer cast time, make it easier to interrupt. Instead of making Blackout do less damage, make the amount of damage it does based on time it's active stack less quickly. Et cetera. Instead of making failure less costly, make it more difficult to fail.
Post by
298296
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Interest
Which might allow people running in high latencies to survive the fire long enough for them to see it and move.
I'm pretty sure that up to a point, high latency shouldn't get you killed (on normal tier 11 raids).
Heroic, on the other hand...
If it does, and the said thing that killed got a nerf, then I can agree with that nerf.
Post by
Magician22773
While I can't really "disagree" with some of the posts, such as Porcell's, I don't really "agree" with them either.
Maybe its just Rose Colored Glasses syndrome, but
something
was different about BC raiding that isn't there now. Back then, you had "Kara" guilds, you had "SSC" guilds, and then you had the top guys running BT......yet, everyone seemed to be happy enough about where they were in that hirearchy. For a good part of BC, I ran in what was just a social "Kara" guild. We ran it weekly, and I rarely recall too many pieces of gear getting sharded. We eventually started downing Gruul and Mag, and soon enough we had a group trudging through SSC.
As one group progressed, we would always have at least 1 group running Kara every week....alts, new members, or just guys like me that (still) freakin love(d) that place. As time went on, we ended up with a guild "alliance" that combined some of the better players from a couple different guilds that eventually worked their way through Hyjal and into the beginnings of BT. But again, I never really NOTICED any burnout, discrimination, or any of the downfalls that I see so much of right now. It was not uncommon to see 1 or 2 of our "progression" team jump right in to a Kara run if there was a hole to fill.
This type of overall mentality is what seems to be missing...pretty much since about the middle of Wrath. I think that is where the "top tier is the only tier" issue comes from. Now, it seems, you are either Best in Slot, or you are a scrub. And with tiers being skippable, you dont see the multi-leveled guilds anymore.
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