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War in Lordaeron
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Post by
4dehorde
"However, the levels of atrocities aren't even on the same scale. One had a great level of humanity (others' vision) or a great knowledge of battle tactics (mine) that allowed for civilians to run into a very unfortunate situation which he wasn't aware of. The other? Tactical nuke to the %^&*ing face. For the lulz (because they could have taken Southshore without that, considering their strength)."
I must remind you that the Alliance forces that attacked Taurajo were criminals fresh out of prison (an incredibly stupid idea, putting thieves and murderers in an army when you are supposedly trying to be merciful to the enemy), and as evidence suggests, they broke from the general's plan and killed everyone they could. Plus, drunken pilots firebombed the town, burning who knows how many people alive. Being burned alive can't be that much better than being plagued to death. So I must insist the level of atrocities is more similar than you are making it.
I even heard a conspiracy theory that Hawthorne was just putting on a show, and that he did fully knowingly order the massacre at Taurajo. I don't know if I believe it or not, but I really wouldn't put it past the Alliance, given their hatred of the Horde.(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##Gryphon##DELIM##Please do not consecutively post, use edit if you have an addendum.
Post by
Skreeran
I have a whole new perspective on the war in Lordaeron. I'm sure everyone here is aware of Sylvanas' backstory. She lost her homeland, her people, and her life to Scourge invaders. Now the Alliance is attacking Lordaeron. She doesn't want a repeat of Quel'Thalas. She is doing everything she can to get the Alliance out and keep her people safe. Her tactics are a bit extreme, but understandable. In my opinion, her cause is just. Just like if the Horde attacked Elywnn Forest or Redridge, Varian would be just in defending his people.For my opinion on this, I'd like you to read
this essay
of mine. I'd rather not type it up again just for this thread.
I must remind you that the Alliance forces that attacked Taurajo were criminals fresh out of prison (an incredibly stupid idea, putting thieves and murderers in an army when you are supposedly trying to be merciful to the enemy), and as evidence suggests, they broke from the general's plan and killed everyone they could. Plus, drunken pilots firebombed the town, burning who knows how many people alive. Being burned alive can't be that much better than being plagued to death. So I must insist the level of atrocities is more similar than you are making it.And I must remind you that the only conscripted
non-violent
criminals, who broke ranks to loot, not kill.
I mean, yeah, the Taurajo attack went terribly, and a lot of innocent people died, but not like the systematic engineered slaughter that the Forsaken are engaged in.
Post by
4dehorde
And I must remind you that the only conscripted
non-violent
criminals, who broke ranks to loot, not kill.
I mean, yeah, the Taurajo attack went terribly, and a lot of innocent people died, but not like the systematic engineered slaughter that the Forsaken are engaged in.
The corpses and number of the deceased seems to contradict that notion. Sure, they looted after the battle, but it cannot be said they didn't act like the criminals they were during the battle too. Also, please provide a source that says the criminals were non-violent. Most criminals are actually rather violent people, they act on violent impulses, so I don't believe that.
Post by
306612
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
4dehorde
I even heard a conspiracy theory that Hawthorne was just putting on a show, and that he did fully knowingly order the massacre at Taurajo. I don't know if I believe it or not, but I really wouldn't put it past the Alliance, given their hatred of the Horde.
Would you look at that! Pure speculation!
I, too, can isolate the most disputable part of a post, giving it no context in hopes of winning an internet argument! Funny that.
How cute. I did say that bit was a conspiracy theory did I not? Not to be too obvious of course.
Post by
355559
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
Also, please provide a source that says the criminals were non-violent. Most criminals are actually rather violent people, they act on violent impulses, so I don't believe that.Provide a source that they are criminals.
It's that same source.
Post by
4dehorde
Also, please provide a source that says the criminals were non-violent. Most criminals are actually rather violent people, they act on violent impulses, so I don't believe that.Provide a source that they are criminals.
It's that same source.
I'll take that to mean you can't provide a source, so unless you can back up your aguement, it really doesn't mean much. Regardless, whether of not they were criminals is not open to discussion. They were "recruited" from the Stockades, one Stormwind's two prisons. So unless the Alliance is now locking people up without cause, and I don't believe they've crossed that line (yet), the people in and from the Stockades are criminals. Quest text and dialogue from Hawthorne corresponds with this. Also, even with that on-going riot, the Stockades is the Alliance's most maximum security prison, surpassed only by the Vault. I highly doubt any "non-violent" criminals would be housed in a maximum security prison.
Post by
Lucsafer
Here's an idea what if the Forsaken joined the Alliance?
Post by
Skreeran
Also, please provide a source that says the criminals were non-violent. Most criminals are actually rather violent people, they act on violent impulses, so I don't believe that.Provide a source that they are criminals.
It's that same source.
I'll take that to mean you can't provide a source, so unless you can back up your aguement, it really doesn't mean much. Regardless, whether of not they were criminals is not open to discussion. They were "recruited" from the Stockades, one Stormwind's two prisons. So unless the Alliance is now locking people up without cause, and I don't believe they've crossed that line (yet), the people in and from the Stockades are criminals. Quest text and dialogue from Hawthorne corresponds with this. Also, even with that on-going riot, the Stockades is the Alliance's most maximum security prison, surpassed only by the Vault. I highly doubt any "non-violent" criminals would be housed in a maximum security prison.No, it means that if you are going to go on and on about them being criminals, you should do some research, instead of making me do it for you...
Our policy of conscripting
non-violent criminals
from the Stormwind Stockades has come back to haunt us, <name>. Some of my less-scrupulous soldiers broke ranks after our victory in Taurajo and are looting the remains of the city.
Right there in the first line of the quest text.
Seriously, this is not hard. You keep going on about how they are criminals, but how did you miss that when it's the very source that they are criminals in the first place.
Post by
306612
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
4dehorde
Also, please provide a source that says the criminals were non-violent. Most criminals are actually rather violent people, they act on violent impulses, so I don't believe that.Provide a source that they are criminals.
It's that same source.
I'll take that to mean you can't provide a source, so unless you can back up your aguement, it really doesn't mean much. Regardless, whether of not they were criminals is not open to discussion. They were "recruited" from the Stockades, one Stormwind's two prisons. So unless the Alliance is now locking people up without cause, and I don't believe they've crossed that line (yet), the people in and from the Stockades are criminals. Quest text and dialogue from Hawthorne corresponds with this. Also, even with that on-going riot, the Stockades is the Alliance's most maximum security prison, surpassed only by the Vault. I highly doubt any "non-violent" criminals would be housed in a maximum security prison.No, it means that if you are going to go on and on about them being criminals, you should do some research, instead of making me do it for you...
Our policy of conscripting
non-violent criminals
from the Stormwind Stockades has come back to haunt us, <name>. Some of my less-scrupulous soldiers broke ranks after our victory in Taurajo and are looting the remains of the city.
Right there in the first line of the quest text.
Seriously, this is not hard. You keep going on about how they are criminals, but how did you miss that when it's the very source that they are criminals in the first place.
I see you didn't take enough time to actually read my post. If you had, you would have seen the sources I named. You keep going on and on about how I am saying they were criminals, and you know why? Because it is true. Even your source says they are. So unless you can give a source that says they were not criminals, this part of the discussion is over.
Also, if Hawthorne said "non-violent" criminals, that can be taken to mean different things. Again I remind you the Stockades is a prison for very hardened criminals. I believe it is likely he was referring to crimals with lesser sentences. That doesn't really mean they are "non-violent", because criminals are a violent people.
Post by
575377
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Atik
Just stopping by to remind everyone to keep things
civil
intelligent.
+1
Post by
306612
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
I see you didn't take enough time to actually read my post. If you had, you would have seen the sources I named. You keep going on and on about how I am saying they were criminals, and you know why? Because it is true. Even your source says they are. So unless you can give a source that says they were not criminals, this part of the discussion is over.I know that they are criminals. There is one source that I know of that mentions that they are criminals. It is also the source that says they were jailed for non-violent crimes.
When you demanded I source that they are non-violent, I asked you to source that they were criminals, because
they are the same source.
Instead of taking the trouble to look up, quote, and link a quest, I was hoping that I could get you to do it yourself, because if you're going to argue that they are criminals from one source, you shouldn't be able to argue that they are violent criminals when your source explicitly mentions that they're non-violent. I was simply pointing you back to your own source for the part that you apparently had missed.
Also, if Hawthorne said "non-violent" criminals, that can be taken to mean different things. Again I remind you the Stockades is a prison for very hardened criminals. I believe it is likely he was referring to crimals with lesser sentences.You're right, it can mean a few different things. They could have been jailed for non-violent crimes, or they could have a history of non-violence in prison. They wouldn't say "non-violent" though unless they meant "
non-violent
."
What other prison might they have been sent to? I was under the impression that the Stockade had only become as dangerous as it had because of all the Defias that had been sent there. It doesn't seem all that more "hardened" than other Stormwind prisons, simply because there aren't any other Stormwind prisons that we know of.
So with that in mind, I went
digging
...
Stormwind Stockade is a high-security prison complex, hidden beneath the canal district of Stormwind city. Presided over by Warden Thelwater, Stormwind Stockade is home to petty crooks, political insurgents, murderers and a score of the most dangerous criminals in the land. Recently, a prisoner-led revolt has resulted in a state of pandemonium within the stockade - where the guards have been driven out and the convicts roam free. Warden Thelwater has managed to escape the holding area and is currently enlisting brave thrill-seekers to venture into the prison and kill the uprising's mastermind - the cunning felon, Bazil Thredd.
According to that, there is a wide range of prisoners, ranging from petty criminals to gang leaders. Not how I would run a prison, but hey, whaddaya know I was right. I imagine it would not be those "most dangerous criminals in the land" that were conscripted, but more of those people who could be described as "non-violent." Like... the petty crooks.
That doesn't really mean they are "non-violent", because criminals are a violent people.Is that so? So if I get arrested for embezzlement, I sudden get a violent bent? If a person is sent to jail for growing marijuana, they morph into a ruthless killer? A person who watches movies illegally online must logically beat his wife as well?
Your statement is pretty ridiculous.
Post by
306612
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
Your statement is pretty ridiculous.
That you answered is even moreso.True.
I suppose I'm just stubborn.
Post by
Monday
Your statement is pretty ridiculous.
That you answered is even moreso.True.
I suppose I'm just stubborn.
God, QFT.
Actually for you, it'd be non-God ;)
Post by
Skreeran
Your statement is pretty ridiculous.
That you answered is even moreso.True.
I suppose I'm just stubborn.
God, QFT.
Actually for you, it'd be non-God ;)lol
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