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Christianity - The Horse that Refuses to Die
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Post by
ExDementia
Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; or he can, but does not want to.
If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent.
If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked.
If he is unable to do either, then why call him 'God'?
Because the purpose of life is opposition to grow and progress, and He has given His word that he will allow free will.
He could break His word, of course, but then he wouldn't be God.
Ohai.
Don't you think it's kind of evil to create evil in the first place?
Post by
Monday
Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; or he can, but does not want to.
If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent.
If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked.
If he is unable to do either, then why call him 'God'?
Because the purpose of life is opposition to grow and progress, and He has given His word that he will allow free will.
He could break His word, of course, but then he wouldn't be God.
Ohai.
Don't you think it's kind of evil to create evil in the first place?
He didn't create evil. Humans are naturally evil, and God just gave us free will.
Post by
Gone
Now prove to me that Elves do not live in the forests of Germany.
Sweep the forests with infrared scanners, take satellite imagery and take video wherever you go (plus liberal use of pictures). Boom.
Sadly, God is on a slightly higher level than elves. Not comparable.
Prove
Russel's Teapot
doesn't exist.
Also, the elves have superpowers that allow them to not be seen by people or any technology made by people.
Prove that the statue of liberty exists
I've seen it, touched it, and been inside of it. This is true if we assume that all of our senses are correct, but all of us are assuming that, including you and Funden, so I think it's safe that I also assume that.
If your going to assume that your sences are not failing you then im going to assume elvs do not have magic powers that make them immune to infered. Like I said there is a lot more logical evidence of God than there is of magic elvs amd I find that comparison offensive
Post by
Monday
I feel the same way, Ryjacork, but others feel the need to downplay stuff they don't believe in.
Post by
Pwntiff
If your going to assume that your sences are not failing you then im going to assume elvs do not have magic powers that make them immune to infered. Like I said there is a lot more logical evidence of God than there is of magic elvs amd I find that comparison offensive
So now you're turning it into an existential debate as well? Are you a nihilistic theist or just trying to make a point?
Post by
Random0076
Now prove to me that Elves do not live in the forests of Germany.
Sweep the forests with infrared scanners, take satellite imagery and take video wherever you go (plus liberal use of pictures). Boom.
Sadly, God is on a slightly higher level than elves. Not comparable.
Prove
Russel's Teapot
doesn't exist.
Also, the elves have superpowers that allow them to not be seen by people or any technology made by people.
Prove that the statue of liberty exists
I've seen it, touched it, and been inside of it. This is true if we assume that all of our senses are correct, but all of us are assuming that, including you and Funden, so I think it's safe that I also assume that.
If your going to assume that your sences are not failing you then im going to assume elvs do not have magic powers that make them immune to infered. Like I said there is a lot more logical evidence of God than there is of magic elvs amd I find that comparison offensive
Suppose I say there are magic elves that created the universe, you say there's a God. There's no more evidence for the existence of God then there is for the Elves, and the only real difference in 'proof' are the fact of that you have a book and more people following you. And quite frankly, I find it offensive that you would think your God is more real than my Elves without presenting me with evidence that supports your beliefs and not mine.
Post by
Monday
Suppose I say there are magic elves that created the universe, you say there's a God. There's no more evidence for the existence of God then there is for the Elves, and the only real difference in 'proof' are the fact of that you have a book and more people following you. And quite frankly, I find it offensive that you would think your God is better than my Elves without presenting me with evidence that supports your beliefs and not mine.
On the contrary, there have been studies showing that God's hand may be in particle physics.
Post by
Pwntiff
I feel the same way, Ryjacork, but others feel the need to downplay stuff they don't believe in.
I don't care what other people believe in. What I don't like is people attempting to impose their beliefs on others because they assume that since their moral compass is orientated by some higher power, their's is the only one that's right.
Post by
Random0076
Suppose I say there are magic elves that created the universe, you say there's a God. There's no more evidence for the existence of God then there is for the Elves, and the only real difference in 'proof' are the fact of that you have a book and more people following you. And quite frankly, I find it offensive that you would think your God is better than my Elves without presenting me with evidence that supports your beliefs and not mine.
On the contrary, there have been studies showing that God's hand may be in particle physics.
How come that's not my Elves' hands? Can you prove it's your God's hand and not mine?
Post by
Pwntiff
Suppose I say there are magic elves that created the universe, you say there's a God. There's no more evidence for the existence of God then there is for the Elves, and the only real difference in 'proof' are the fact of that you have a book and more people following you. And quite frankly, I find it offensive that you would think your God is better than my Elves without presenting me with evidence that supports your beliefs and not mine.
On the contrary, there have been studies showing that God's hand may be in particle physics.
That's particle physics. I think they're making all that up as they go along anyway.
Post by
Gone
I feel the same way, Ryjacork, but others feel the need to downplay stuff they don't believe in.
I don't care what other people believe in. What I don't like is people attempting to impose their beliefs on others because they assume that since their moral compass is orientated by some higher power, their's is the only one that's right.
Im sorry I think you need to take another look at the original post of this thread before accusing the other side of the debate of imposing their beleifs on others
Post by
ExDementia
He didn't create evil. Humans are naturally evil, and God just gave us free will.
If god created
everything
, and evil falls under the category of
everything
, then god created evil.
Also, didn't he create man in his own image? Wouldn't that make him naturally evil too?
I assume these things will be no because your gut tells you god is great, and god can do no wrong. If we were talking about anything else, you would see the logic in this argument because you are a reasonable person.
Post by
Gone
He didn't create evil. Humans are naturally evil, and God just gave us free will.
If god created
everything
, and evil falls under the category of
everything
, then god created evil.
Also, didn't he create man in his own image? Wouldn't that make him naturally evil too?
I assume these things will be no because your gut tells you god is great, and god can do no wrong. If we were talking about anything else, you would see the logic in this argument because you are a reasonable person.
Go back and read Genisis, he gave us choice, we chose to let evil into the world.
Post by
Monday
Suppose I say there are magic elves that created the universe, you say there's a God. There's no more evidence for the existence of God then there is for the Elves, and the only real difference in 'proof' are the fact of that you have a book and more people following you. And quite frankly, I find it offensive that you would think your God is better than my Elves without presenting me with evidence that supports your beliefs and not mine.
On the contrary, there have been studies showing that God's hand may be in particle physics.
How come that's not my Elves' hands? Can you prove it's your God's hand and not mine?
Considering that the Elves have never attempted to contact humanity, yet God has contacted humanity, sent prophets and his own Son, then yeah. (Of course, you may not believe Jesus even existed, but then you'd be the one believing in completely fictional things, as most historians agree that Jesus actually did exist, even if he wasn't the Son of God).
Besides, Elves have only lived in their forest and messed with humans. Nowhere have they attempted to show that they are saviors of humanity, you go to an afterlife if you believe, etc etc. I feel the same way, Ryjacork, but others feel the need to downplay stuff they don't believe in.
I don't care what other people believe in. What I don't like is people attempting to impose their beliefs on others because they assume that since their moral compass is orientated by some higher power, their's is the only one that's right.
Have I ever done this?
Once?
Ever?
Have. I. Ever. Attempted. To. Do. This?
The answer is no.
Why?
Because it's fucking rude, that's why.
Post by
ExDementia
He didn't create evil. Humans are naturally evil, and God just gave us free will.
If god created
everything
, and evil falls under the category of
everything
, then god created evil.
Also, didn't he create man in his own image? Wouldn't that make him naturally evil too?
I assume these things will be no because your gut tells you god is great, and god can do no wrong. If we were talking about anything else, you would see the logic in this argument because you are a reasonable person.
Go back and read Genisis, he gave us choice, we chose to let evil into the world.
Evil being an idea that he created.
Post by
Monday
He didn't create evil. Humans are naturally evil, and God just gave us free will.
If god created
everything
, and evil falls under the category of
everything
, then god created evil.
Also, didn't he create man in his own image? Wouldn't that make him naturally evil too?
I assume these things will be no because your gut tells you god is great, and god can do no wrong. If we were talking about anything else, you would see the logic in this argument because you are a reasonable person.
Evil is an interesting word, as what may be evil to one person may not be evil to another.
And in my theology, He created man in his own image, yes. However, we have terrestrial bodies, whereas His is celestial, thus on a higher plane and incapable of evil.
Post by
ExDementia
He didn't create evil. Humans are naturally evil, and God just gave us free will.
If god created
everything
, and evil falls under the category of
everything
, then god created evil.
Also, didn't he create man in his own image? Wouldn't that make him naturally evil too?
I assume these things will be no because your gut tells you god is great, and god can do no wrong. If we were talking about anything else, you would see the logic in this argument because you are a reasonable person.
Evil is an interesting word, as what may be evil to one person may not be evil to another.
And in my theology, He created man in his own image, yes. However, we have terrestrial bodies, whereas His is celestial, thus on a higher plane and incapable of evil.
So while we consider rape, torture and murder evil, he may not?
Post by
Gone
He didn't create evil. Humans are naturally evil, and God just gave us free will.
If god created
everything
, and evil falls under the category of
everything
, then god created evil.
Also, didn't he create man in his own image? Wouldn't that make him naturally evil too?
I assume these things will be no because your gut tells you god is great, and god can do no wrong. If we were talking about anything else, you would see the logic in this argument because you are a reasonable person.
Go back and read Genisis, he gave us choice, we chose to let evil into the world.
Evil being an idea that he created.
No it was a choice, and it was neccisary for us to have free will, again this gos back to that circual reasoning debate.
Post by
Pwntiff
I feel the same way, Ryjacork, but others feel the need to downplay stuff they don't believe in.
I don't care what other people believe in. What I don't like is people attempting to impose their beliefs on others because they assume that since their moral compass is orientated by some higher power, their's is the only one that's right.
Im sorry I think you need to take another look at the original post of this thread before accusing the other side of the debate of imposing their beleifs on others
I'm sorry, I wasn't aware I'd made comments directly relating to the original post. And this isn't attempting to impose beliefs on others. Saying "abortion is a sin against God and therefore should be completely illegal" is pushing beliefs on others because that's assuming that your moral compass is the only correct one, and everyone in the country should abide by it.
Funden, my comment wasn't directed at you, it was directed at my overall opinion of religious people: "I don't mind you until you start telling me to repent and change my ways over some aspect of my life that doesn't concern you."
Post by
chaosultimamage
I said the exact same thing that Xara said, only with less wordiness because he'd already said it.
No, you didn't. You restated your original post (which I asked for clarification on) without adding any new information. That is not a good debating tactic, especially when you try to cover it up as well.
2) This question also completely invalidates the existence of a god that is omniscient and omnipotent, because he had to come from somewhere too.
How does that stop God from being omnipotent? Omnipotent and omniscient simply mean all powerful and all seeing.
A god that had to be created by something else cannot be omnipotent or omniscient.
If you argue that for something to exist, it must be made, then you need a reason to excuse your deity from that same argument, or must also accept that said deity was made as well - which implies that the 'omnipotent' deity was created by an even more 'omnipotenter' deity (since coupled up with this is the argument that a complex creation requires a more complex creator), which means that the original deity wasn't really omnipotent to begin with.
I first stated that god could not be omniscient and omnipotent if we're working under the assumption that something had to create him (which has to be true based on the premise of the argument to begin with), meaning there is something with more power and more knowledge.
Multiple omnipotent and omniscient gods DO NOT exist according to The Bible and all versions of Christianity (with the exception of Fundenism, apparently?), so there's no point in arguing that. The whole point of Christianity is that their is one God and that he is the only God and there are no others.
Saying that the same single God has always existed, but has simply been creating himself over and over throughout time is just retarded. This completely defies all of Christianity and all logic and the debate at hand. Either he ALWAYS existed or he was CREATED, not both.
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