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Bad tanks and others
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Post by
Adamsm
Paladin or Warrior would be a good choice, with a Bear or a DK if you want a bit more of a challenge.
Post by
AngelKnight52
Thanks alot Adamsm I will start hacking away at it..once the servers are up >>
Post by
437541
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Atik
My first tank was a warrior, than DK, than Paladin.
I tried a druid once, but at the time, my server though Boomkins were better tanks and shunned my bear... so I deleted him.
Post by
Azrile
The problem is that most dungeons below 60 don´t even need a tank. If everyone single target kills something, they will die way before they do any real damage. We can talk about what is right, or that it is necessary for tanks to learn how to tank (so we should go slower), but the reality is, a lot of players just want to level up fast, in fact, the vast majority do.
I have leveled up two tanks now since cata launched, and I have given up trying to ´tank´. I charge in, do aoe, but I don´t chase down mobs that I lose aggro on unless they are going to the healer. By the time I get a taunt off, and the mob gets back to me, the dps has it dead anyway. Just keep stuff off the healer and the run will be fine.
Yea, I have a warrior that I always queue as a tank, while in arms spec with a few heirlooms. I got Maraudon (the one with the princess) while I was level 41. Most mobs were green. Upon entering the instance, a dps said, "ummm, tank..." and I already knew what he was going to say. Equip a shield, enter defensive stance, blah blah. I told him I didn't need to, and everybody else in the group agreed as long as I did a decent job of holding aggro, as everything dies so fast anyway.
At what point does a tank need to tank? BC dungeons?
You should basically ALWAYS be tanking.. mainly what I am talking about is just ´relaxing´your own anger if dps pull mobs and your urgency to taunt them back to you before lvl 60. Just don´t stress out about it or cause drama. Charge, rend, TC etc....which you should be doing just to keep the healer from getting killed. If a dps isn´t attacking your main target, or if they pull aggro.. just relax about it. The change will occur in the middle of BC levels when the DPS can´t blow up mobs fast enough and they get beat on and take a lot of healing. At that point, just start marking a main target before the pull. But it really depends on your gear level. I leveled a bear on a new server and tanked BC levels against DPS in full heirlooms... they were pulling aggro all the time, but they didn´t mind and so I just relaxed about it. Healers are very very bored running dungeons.... there are very few exciting moments until you get to Cata.
Post by
Azrile
If you are new to tanking, what would you recommend would be a good class to start tanking with? I find this thread interesting because of what is being said and I have been wanting to start tanking since I do dps. I have noticed that many times im in instances I tend to over dps and just stop to give the tank aggro back but sometimes tanks dont do anything about it. It's a weird mechanic between tanking and dpsing.
Honestly, I think bear is the easiest to play... from 1-80 you can basically just swipe, mangle, swipe, mangle, swipe and relax. Pally is pretty easy too, you use the same rotation, but just switch out CS with SoR for aoe pulls. The problem with warriors from 1-80 is that you are 3 gcds (charge,rend, TC) away from your first AOE ability if you do things right... which is too much time for most DPS to wait. If the dps pull mobs early, then your TC will miss them, which means rend doesn´t get applied to them, and the pull is a mess. With bear, you charge, thrash, swipe..
Post by
Orranis
Paladin or Warrior would be a good choice, with a Bear or a DK if you want a bit more of a challenge.
Paladin's are by far the easiest class to tank with. It'd be hyperbole to call it faceroll, but it's very intuitive. I can't speak of the leveling experience, as I leveled my Death Knight under a completely different system, but at max level, DK's are by far the best tank for early content where they are carried by the Death Strike minimum heal. As long as you're Death Striking and keeping threat, you're pretty much golden. Then Bears, then Warriors, who simply have the most complex base rotation and cooldowns.
As you start getting more experienced, and thus into harder content, Paladins remain easiest, then Bears, then Warriors (you could argue a lot about the two), and then Death Knights with the 'Rune Tetris' idea to game for your very best abilities are leaps and bounds harder to perfect at the top levels.
Post by
833034
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
ZombieJesus
This was hilarious.
I wish I could have seen it happen.
WTB observer mode.
Post by
Thandion
Tanks, check the DPSs' mana as well as the healers.
If the Mage/Priest/Lock/Boomkin have no mana, who is going to kill the mobs?
I've seen numerous wipes because the tank paid NO attention to the DPS casters. And even when you bring it to their attention, the curtly report with some asinine comment like "healer wasn't OOM"
*facepalm!*
Yes, I've been trying to keep an eye on that myself: waiting for dps to drink/evocate/life tap/innervate/whatever before I move onto the next bit, as well as keeping an eye on healers mana bar :)
Post by
CaoimheX
Tanks, check the DPSs' mana as well as the healers.
If the Mage/Priest/Lock/Boomkin have no mana, who is going to kill the mobs?
I've seen numerous wipes because the tank paid NO attention to the DPS casters. And even when you bring it to their attention, the curtly report with some asinine comment like "healer wasn't OOM"
*facepalm!*Yes, I've been trying to keep an eye on that myself: waiting for dps to drink/evocate/life tap/innervate/whatever before I move onto the next bit, as well as keeping an eye on healers mana bar :)But that's when the idiot rogue/hunter decides you're going too slow and pulls for you. Mages, priests, boomkins and warlocks all have mana reclamation methods that they should be using. A single overzealous DPS is far more dangerous than having a DPS drinking during a pull.
Time waits for no man, DPS waits for no tank.(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##asakawa##DELIM##Please try to express yourself without using ADHD in a disparaging way.
Post by
285998
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
CaoimheX
If the tank dies and they wipe because he rushed in while the DPS were OOM, it's the tank's fault.You're looking at it from the point that all DPS are casters. I'm considering that there's a DPS class that does not need mana.
A tank won't die because DPS are out of mana. He'll die because the healer went OOM, or because he made over-sized pulls that the healer and tank could not cope with. Or maybe the healer just isn't the most skilled. He could die because the mobs aren't dying because the three caster DPS are all drinking and none of them realises you can stop drinking before you have full mana. It annoyed me when I was levelling my mage, but no-one wiped because I was drinking while the tank was pulling.
I will stop for a DPS if they ask for a mana break, but unless they say otherwise, it is reasonable to expect that the DPS stll have mana cooldowns available to them. I'd far rather have one DPS crying for a mana break, than having some twit ninja pulling because I'm going too slowly.
Edit: I actually had a shadow priest once asking for mana breaks, then later during the instance started ninja pulling because I was going too slowly. This sort of player will cause more wipes than a DPS sitting to drink while the tank pulls the next group.
If you're pulling aggro off the tank on trash odds are you're doing single target DPS when the tank is on an AoE rotation (I'm looking at you enhance shammys!), or the other way around. Guilty... I can wait for 2 or 3 seconds before I open a can of whoop-ass, but so often I'll pull aggro... sorry... next target, so the tank can save my sorry butt, then I pull aggro on that target too. We need to tab-target almost as much as the tanks, or we pull aggro. The reason is simple: enhancement shammies have terrible, terrible AoE, that is inneffective and hard to use, even with the 4.2 changes.
Post by
285998
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
243349
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Atik
Tanks who can't hold aggro because they're working on their DPS instead of their threat are doing it wrong.
In Cata DPS = threat. Tanks have a threat bonus to everything they do, but no longer do they have sunder-like abilities from vanilla with static threat bonus (which would be completely eclipsed by the crazy gear scaling of wrath/cata).
DPS stats ARE threat stats, and for druids they are mitigation stats too.
If you're pulling off a tank on a boss fight, either someone is failing a mechanic or the tank is terrible. If you're pulling aggro off the tank on trash odds are you're doing single target DPS when the tank is on an AoE rotation (I'm looking at you enhance shammys!), or the other way around.
Before you label tanks as bad you should try to understand the mechanics. If I'm pulling 12K DPS on a 4 mob pull and you've got a mob chasing you and your DPS isn't 36k+, you messed up, not me.
I'm doing 4k on bosses and 6k-9k on trash. I've never had a mob pull off me unless it was hit before I even had a chance to get aggro on it.
And I'm not just bad DPS either, in arms I can do 12k and up on bosses. (Has been down since 4.2 hit...)
Post by
517094
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Azrile
Tanks who can't hold aggro because they're working on their DPS instead of their threat are doing it wrong.
In Cata DPS = threat. Tanks have a threat bonus to everything they do, but no longer do they have sunder-like abilities from vanilla with static threat bonus (which would be completely eclipsed by the crazy gear scaling of wrath/cata).
DPS stats ARE threat stats, and for druids they are mitigation stats too.
If you're pulling off a tank on a boss fight, either someone is failing a mechanic or the tank is terrible. If you're pulling aggro off the tank on trash odds are you're doing single target DPS when the tank is on an AoE rotation (I'm looking at you enhance shammys!), or the other way around.
Before you label tanks as bad you should try to understand the mechanics. If I'm pulling 12K DPS on a 4 mob pull and you've got a mob chasing you and your DPS isn't 36k+, you messed up, not me.
Unless things have changed to the point of absurdity, there's a lot more to a tank's threat-grabbing rotation than DPS. Tank's have specific threat-grabbing abilities that they need to throw into their rotations. Mere DPS alone simply doesn't cut it.
I think he is referring to things directly like sunder, which ONLY added threat back in the day It was a button you pushed as part of your rotation and did a certain amount of threat regardless of your gear. Pretty much every tank now gets their threat from damage dealing abilities, and the threat scales with how much damage that ability does. Some abilities get bonus threat, but it still scales with the damage that the tank does with that ability, but I think Blizzard has even backed away from bonus threat from some abilities (bear swipe for example) . There are no ´big threat´ abilities anymore.. your rotation is based on the number of targets (CS vs SoR for pallies etc) and the cd of each ability. Since all your threat abilities are based off of damage, increasing your dps increases your threat.
It is one of the reasons vengeance works... as your vengeance goes up, your AP goes, up, your damage goes up, your threat goes up......
Post by
285998
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
857938
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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