This site makes extensive use of JavaScript.
Please enable JavaScript in your browser.
Classic Theme
Thottbot Theme
Can of Worms: Does telling a racist joke make you racist?
Post Reply
Return to board index
Post by
donnymurph
I'm sorry, what part of being male is more "default" than being female?
Post by
Squishalot
"Superior", if not 'default' then. Patriarchal society and all.
Post by
donnymurph
I don't feel superior to women or people from other races.
Then again, I do kinda have a self-diagnosed inferiority complex, so I'm probably not the best person to be talking about such things...
Post by
132589
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Squishalot
Psychologists have determined that our sense of humour is inherently linked to our sense of superiority over others. It's the reason why atheists like making fun of the religious, why almost everybody likes making fun of the Jews, and why the Jews like making fun of the Gentiles, and part of why jokes themselves come at a target's expense. It is, in fact, why almost all jokes are 'put-downs' in some way, shape or form.
Because guess what? I really couldnt care less.
To paraphrase a tweet on tonight's show - "It may not make you racist, but you're still a jerk." There's a fellow in Norway who acted on what he thought was good, just a couple of days ago.(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##Squishalot##DELIM##
Post by
donnymurph
Could it be that when telling a joke, we are temporarily putting ourselves into an alternate reality where we are superior?
Post by
Squishalot
Could it be that when telling a joke, we are temporarily putting ourselves into an alternate reality where we are superior?
No, the study was looking at what jokes we find funny / laugh at. Could it be that when listening to a joke, we are temporarily putting ourselves into an alternate reality where we are superior? Well, can we really be sure that's the alternative, rather than reality, in that case?
Post by
ElhonnaDS
It's not western society that teaches racism- it's every society. In Japan there are restaurants (or were in the pretty recent past) that say no non-Japanese can eat there. The Hutu and the Tutsi are murdering each other in Rwanda over ethnicity. Pakistan and India used to be a single country, that split because in areas where one religion dominated, members of the other were oppressed. You can't just blame western society- it's human nature to distrust that which is different, to stereotype and generalize, and to make jokes accordingly. It's sad, and we should as a species fight our worse instincts, but it's there.
That being said, I actually don't think telling racial jokes automatically makes someone racist. I used to think it did, but I don't anymore. I grew up in a very non-diverse suburb, and the majority of the people I knew were pretty similar to me in terms of ethnicity and I didn't have much exposure to anything else. But I knew that racism was wrong, would never want to be racist, and used to get really mad at people for telling racial jokes, regardless of the joke or the context.
Things were different when I went to college. I was in the minorty by a large margin- the majority of my friends were of different ethnicities than I was, and were from either other countries, or were from areas in this country that were very different from where I grew up. My African American friends were actually the ones who got me to loosen up. They would tease me about being white all the time- "Oh my God- I just went out to lunch with El and her parents, and they went to a place called the 'Cracker Barrel'-bahahaha," etc. They would try to goad me into saying stuff back, because we all ripped on each other in good fun about everything else. And, eventually I did. And they laughed just as hard as I did when they ripped on me.
A lot of us have relationships with our friends where we rag on each other, good naturedly, constantly. It's not off-limits for my friends and I to tease each other about our parents, our clothes, our boyfriends/girlfriends, dumb stuff we've said and done, etc., and it's not off-limits for us to make fun of each others stereotypes, either. If anything, I think that when I was treating my friends who were not white differently (because I was willing to tell my Irish friends that they were pale drunks who ate potatos, or my Italian friends that they were obviously in the mob, but wouldn't make similar jokes about non-white friends) because I didn't want to offend them, I was actually making more of a pre-judgement than when I relaxed and tossed the trash-talk back and forth with them.
Also, a lot of comedians, of all backgrounds, use racial humor in the context of making trying to make people realize how stupid actual racism really is. Archie Bunker is the iconic racist white man, but every joke he told was designed to show how much mis-information and ingorance went into stereotyping. His character was designed to make people take a look at how they sounded to other people when they said stupid, ignorant things about other races. A number of comedians use racial humor, with the overall message being that we're not all that different, and we have to stop being scared of what we think of each other and just treat each other the same regardless of race, religion, ethnicity, etc. If you are being overly polite to someone, because you don't think you can relate to them the way you do to people of your own race...you're still being racist.
That being said, I think a lot of people use racial humor as a way to offend and belittle people, to reinforce their own prejudices, and as a way to lash out in a way that won't land them in trouble because of how hateful they are. And that's disgusting. And in that case, the jokes are discrimination, racist, etc. And there are jokes that are really disgusting, that no one should ever make, because of the specific content (like Berelain's joke below).
But, if it's a yes or no, does it make you racist 100% of the time if you tell racial jokes, then my answer was no. There are shades of grey. There is a world of difference between when a group of racist d*****bags sit around telling racist jokes filled with venom and malice, and when my Mexican brother-in-law tells his wife he wants her to go to a Halloween party with him dressed as border patrol.
Post by
166779
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
858862
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Squishalot
It's difficult to qualify without giving an example, so I hope you'll forgive me pasting in an example of what I find a really offensive racist joke into spoiler tags below (lets hope my employers aren't tracking my google habits after this little find). It's dumb and offensive, and to be honest I wouldn't bother looking at it unless you really can't imagine there being something such as a truly racist 'joke'. I don't see how anyone can find that joke funny without being a racist. It is offensive though, so mods obviously delete if you see appropriate.
Nothing wrong here by us (well, me) - taken in the spirit in which it's offered. Can't say the same about your employers though ;)
There are other similarly offensive jokes:
How does a black woman prevent crime? Abortion.
What's the difference between Santa Claus and a Jew? Santa Claus comes *down* the chimney.
However, what makes this any worse than, for example (what was used on the program tonight):
A black guy was walking down the street in New York when he's stopped by a guy who says, "Dude, those are some awesome sunnies!" The black guy replies, "I'm not wearing sunnies, they're my nostrils."
... which did get a laugh? Is it simply because one is highlighting a negative association, whereas the other is highlighting a 'neutral' association? (Using inverted commas, because its neutrality is questionable.)
Post by
166779
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
asakawa
If anyone is able to see the HBO special "Talking Funny" they should jump at the chance. It's Ricky Gervais joined by Chris Rock, Jerry Seinfeld and Louis CK talking about their approach to comedy. A big subject they touch on the racist jokes (and other potentially offensive stuff).
Personally I'm not at all sure how I feel about this subject but I do feel strongly that taboos need to be broken wherever possible. Taboos fester and grow stronger the more people adhere to them and the only way to break them is to talk about them freely. I don't think people need to make jokes at the expense of others to achieve this however.
Post by
ElhonnaDS
@Unpack- I understand, and if I had to give a one sentence answer, It'd be "don't tell racist jokes" rather than "It's ok sometimes, if you don't mean it" with no explaination of what I mean, and no discussion of nuance, intent, content, the way it factors into relationships, etc. Luckily, my boss is on vacation, and I have plenty of time :)
@Squish- The third joke is...well...I don't actually get it, because that's not a stereotype I've ever heard. Must be an Australian thing.
But I can totally see how making fun of a physical trait that is associated with an ethnicity in an exaggerated way would be less offensive than saying that they should all be killed before birth, or making fun of genocide. Not saying that the third one isn't offensive, but it doen't evoke the same kinds of emotions as mass murder or saying a specific race is better off not being born.
Post by
pezz
I like to look at it from a different angle than what does/does not cross the line.
I'm not usually a pure pragmatist about language or ethics, but I am here. Try a thought experiment: Think of the tamest, most non-confrontational, good humored joke you know of that still hinges on racial stereotypes. Next, think of the most non-racist person you know telling that joke. If we call that joke
racist
, then what good is that word? What good is that concept? You can only stretch the definition of racism so far before it starts to become meaningless.
Frankly, if someone's definition of a racist makes me one if I laugh at the above joke told by the above person, then, by that definition at least,
I don't care that I'm a racist
. I'm a white male, born into upper-middle class society, and I know go to a small liberal arts college. I should be
dripping
with white liberal guilt, so obviously I should be recoiling in horror at the thought that I could harbor racist views or behavior. I think it's dangerous to go down a road where such a terrible concept as racism starts to lose meaning in that way.
Edit: I think I've just invented the reverse paradigm case argument!
Post by
166779
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
124027
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Thror
Psychologists have determined that our sense of humour is inherently linked to our sense of superiority over others. It's the reason why atheists like making fun of the religious, why almost everybody likes making fun of the Jews, and why the Jews like making fun of the Gentiles, and part of why jokes themselves come at a target's expense. It is, in fact, why almost all jokes are 'put-downs' in some way, shape or form.
I wonder what those psychologists said when they encountered self-parody. Or if they ever did. When I said I enjoy sexist jokes, that did not mean I enjoy jokes about
women
and that I would unknowingly like sexist jokes because they help me prove my superiority over them. At least that is what I conclude from the fact that I can enjoy jokes about
men
all the same way.
Or I would, If there were any.
This also applies to jokes about Slovaks, Bratislavans (there are a lot of those in Slovakia), Europeans, gamers, wow players, geeks, bookworms, white people, hairy people, people with beards, people with blue eyes, people with hair, people who live in a democratic society, atheists, and many more artificial stereotypes that could, by a stretch, relate to me. As in, if well thought out, I can love them.
Anyway, an important thing that should be mentioned and that so far has not been particularly pointed at (unless I missed it) is tact. At least that's how I call the ability to judge whether a joke will be taken positively or negatively. Jokes should not be said with the intention to offend people, and the one telling the joke should know what jokes does his audience enjoy, and what jokes could possibly offend someone in the audience. Now, I am not saying that standup comedies are bad for example even with their usually big and various audiences, the trick is that people that attend to standup comedies are usually very hardly offended by anything. What I am saying is that... you can't really get into a new job, and the first day you meet your colleagues, spill out a joke about dead babies, about jews, about democrats, and about mothers, and expect to become the most favorite man in the building.
There was a really good episode in the Life with Louie cartoon about this. D:
Post by
xaratherus
"I had thought — I had been told — that a 'funny' thing is a thing of a goodness. It isn't. Not ever is it funny to the person it happens to. Like that sheriff without his pants. The goodness is in the laughing itself. I grok it is a bravery . . . and a sharing… against pain and sorrow and defeat." - Robert Heinlein, Stranger in a Strange Land
Post by
Murrdurr
I love me some dirty humor, whether it be racist, sexist, etc. And no, I do not believe telling a racist joke makes you racist, thats just silly. Words shouldnt hurt or offend anyone imo, and if they do youre either being narrow minded or are just easily insulted, or looking to blame someone. Just remember, its not your right to not be offended, if someone says something that offends you theres really nothing you can do about it, sure you can express your frustation but thats about it. I am sick and tired of seeing people apologize for something they said because someone or a group of people have to get all whiny about it, and lets face it; they only do it for the attention anyways. Black comedian starts with the white person jokes? Thats funny, every black comedian I ever seen has racist material about a white person, and the black audience just loves that !@#$. Turn black comedian into a white comedian now? That audience will quickly hate him, and will ignore they had a laugh about white people earlier with the black comedian.
Tracy Morgan recently had to apologize to the gay community for a throw away joke he made at a comedy club. It was along the lines of "if I found out my son was gay I'd shoot that ^&*!@". Now if you ever heard any of his stuff and know how he talks, you could imagine it was in a goofy way not to offend anyone. Yet there were some stiff people in the crowd and outraged about it, things are not looking good when people get offended at a COMEDY CLUB. So, if I told a racist joke or what have you and someone heard it and labeled me as a racist I would roll my eyes and call them a bigot.
Post Reply
You are not logged in. Please
log in
to post a reply or
register
if you don't already have an account.