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Can of Worms: Does telling a racist joke make you racist?
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Post by
ElhonnaDS
Hmmm....I'm wondering if I should change my vote. While I still maintain that there are select instances where racial humor is designed to poke fun at the stereotype, and not the person, or to make people understand that racism is ridiculous, they are in the minority. My brother once told me that 90% of people think that they are less racist than the average person, and I'm seeing a lot of that reflected in this thread. A lot of people are using jokes as examples, which I can't imagine a scenario where they wouldn't be degrading. A lot of people use language that I consider way beyond something for friendly teasing. A lot of people think that if they're "just kidding" when they say things like this, then it must be the other person's fault for getting offended. I just..wow.
Post by
xaratherus
I stand by my vote of "No". Intent and context are everything. If I cannot laugh at everything - especially myself - then I cannot laugh at anything.
In his novel Stranger in a Strange Land, Robert Heinlein voices the opinion that at the center of every joke is a "wrongness".
I had thought — I had been told — that a 'funny' thing is a thing of a goodness. It isn't. Not ever is it funny to the person it happens to. Like that sheriff without his pants. The goodness is in the laughing itself. I grok it is a bravery . . . and a sharing… against pain and sorrow and defeat.
Should we be cognizant of the feelings of others? Yes. But if we spent all of our time avoiding offending someone, then literally nothing would get done, because
everything
offends
someone
.
Post by
Squishalot
Should we be cognizant of the feelings of others? Yes. But if we spent all of our time avoiding offending someone, then literally nothing would get done, because
everything
offends
someone
.
My primary criticism of many attitudes being expressed in this thread isn't so much the fact that an act is offensive to someone, but rather, the lack of empathy shown by those who are doing the offending. Comments like :
If you dont like the joke, fine, just dont tell me that Im wrong and I need to ... beg for forgiveness. Because guess what? I really couldnt care less.
... get on my nerves, because it shows a complete disregard for others.
xara, I believe you're both right and wrong. Right in that context is everything. Wrong in that 'context' includes the context from the listener and observer's perspective as well. You can laugh internally at your own thoughts - you don't need to vocalise them at the expense of a colleague or friend whom you know would take offense.
Post by
ElhonnaDS
It's true that everything offends someone, but there are some things that are more offensive than others. If you were at the funeral of a grandmother you loved very much, and someone came up and told you she was a wh***, and slept with all of the men in town, and a lot of STD's died with her, don't you think you'd have the right to tell them to stop? That they're being insensitive, and you don't want to hear it? Is it your problem that you're offended, and they shouldn't have to cater to your feelings to make a joke?
Post by
xaratherus
If you were at the funeral of a grandmother you loved very much, and someone came up and told you she was a wh***, and slept with all of the me in town, and a lot of STD's died with her, don't you think you'd have the right to tell them to stop?
Part of the context in this example is the location. Again, taking the context into, er, context is part of the difference between distinguishing a joke and someone intentionally trying to be hurtful.
Now, to be honest about this particular example? It depends on who the "someone" is in the above example, because that's part of the context also. My immediate family has a very dark, gallows sense of humor. If it was one of a handful of people who said that? I'd probably laugh.
If the person instead shouted the statement out loud to everyone? Note that I specifically suggested we should be aware of the feelings of others. In no way could that permutation of your hypothetical be considered 'empathically' cognizant.
Post by
ElhonnaDS
I understand that, but what seems to be the dominant sentiment of this thread is that racial humor, regardless of what the content of it is, is "not a big deal". Part of the context in my hypothetical is that you're at a funeral, where people are already grieving, and these are designed to hurt.
Part of the context in a case where someone is being told racial jokes, about their own race, is also location. For many people, the location is a country where in their living memory people have murdered, tortured or imprisoned people for being of that race. Where racism is prevalent enough that people thinking of them as "dirty", sub human, as criminals and all of the other jokes people are saying on this board, has actually cost them things in their life. In that context, a joke from a stranger, even in jest, is playing into all of the damage done to their life in the name of the ideas behind that joke.
When my friends and I teased each other, it was about neutral associations, traits we acknowledged ourselves, etc. It was never about being less than someone else, about comparing someone to a bag of ****, or about shooting someone if my daughter came home with them. It was more about my white self taking people to the cracker barrel, my Indian friend who couldn't keep a straight face when he told us he got a job at 7-11, my Jamaican roomate calling me the wrong name, and then joking "Sorry- you know you white people all look the same". It was more making fun of the stereotypes than degrading the person with them. And none of us would, if we had offended each other, ever done anything other than apologise and never have said anything like it again. Because it's the decent thing to do.
If you have a political or social point to make, and you offend someone, then good for you. If you're teaching people something, and it offends people that don't agree with it, then that's their problem. But when you're saying something nasty about one person or a group of people, for no other reason than you find it funny, then it's kind of on you.
Post by
Skreeran
When my friends and I teased each other, it was about neutral associations, traits we acknowledged ourselves, etc. It was never about being less than someone else, about comparing someone to a bag of ****, or about shooting someone if my daughter came home with them. It was more about my white self taking people to the cracker barrel, my Indian friend who couldn't keep a straight face when he told us he got a job at 7-11, my Jamaican roomate calling me the wrong name, and then joking "Sorry- you know you white people all look the same". It was more making fun of the stereotypes than degrading the person with them. And none of us would, if we had offended each other, ever done anything other than apologise and never have said anything like it again. Because it's the decent thing to do.I agree with this.
If the question were worded differently, I might have voted Yes, but since it was simply "Does telling a racist joke make you racist?" I voted no, because that's not necessarily true. In many cases it is racist people making racist jokes, but it is also possible to poke fun at racial stereotypes without being racist yourself.
Post by
Cambo
Of course, the important things to keep in mind are delivery, content and context.
UnpackKnapsack is angry at me and thinks I’m a stupid racist, however the fact that I live in a different part of the world and have encountered a different degree of racism hasn’t entered into their mind.
My point is that it is a cop-out to be offended at every single racist joke or quip, because of the above-mentioned three variables. If it is directed at you in spite and anger, then it is understandable to be upset and offended. But if it is a joke delivered by a black man in a comedy show, that’s different.
And that brings us to the old conundrum:
The word ‘n***er’ can be used between two dark-skinned people, no problem. But white people can’t use it. The reason usually given is that white people don’t understand the scars inflicted in the 17th and 18th centuries. But modern African-Americans haven’t been affected by it either. (I’ve used A-A’s as an example only; any dark skinned person around the world gets offended by the word, but not all of them can trace their roots back to the USA).
Aren’t all people born equal? In a hospital with the same care, you live in a house, you can go to school and get an education, get a job like anyone in your country? There is very little real racial marginalisation happening in western society. You can’t blame your poor socio-economic standing on the white man because you live in a town with no jobs. There are probably other families from other cultural backgrounds (including European) living in the same area, struggling just like you are. There is no white man oppressing you, the town was probably set up around a business or industry which has closed down.
I do think racism, racialism and bigotry are terrible. At the extreme end, they are real threats to the stability and security of a peaceful society. Many racist people become that way because they have been a victim themselves. Racism is thus a cycle, with two parties, neither of whom necessarily ease the problem. Victims have a tendency to be suspicious and spiteful of the majority of the race represented by the person who was racist to them.
Post by
255458
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Post by
858862
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Squishalot
The reason usually given is that white people don’t understand the scars inflicted in the 17th and 18th centuries. But modern African-Americans haven’t been affected by it either.
If I tell jokes about %^&gots, I'm fairly certain that xaratherus and others on this board will have their scars, despite the fact that it's not the early 20th century anymore.
I don't think you're giving modern African-Americans enough credit for the racial discrimination that they have to deal with. It might not be as bad as the 17th/18th centuries, but it's still not equality. Ditto goes for the Aborigines in Australia. The Maoris seem to have managed to obtain a much greater sense of equality than other previously oppressed races, so maybe that's why you seem to think that 'modern' people aren't affected by it.
Edited to restore censoring - damn green text!(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##Squishalot##DELIM##
Post by
Skreeran
The reason usually given is that white people don’t understand the scars inflicted in the 17th and 18th centuries. But modern African-Americans haven’t been affected by it either.
If I tell jokes about %^&gots, I'm fairly certain that xaratherus and others on this board will have their scars, despite the fact that it's not the early 20th century anymore.Again, though, the context of the joke really matters. If you tell it to someone who you know doesn't hate homosexuals, and you're not in the company of someone who will be emotionally hurt by your telling of it, it's not going to be the same as if you shouted it out in a crowd, or posted it on a public message board.
Post by
Cambo
Actually, I'm not angry at you. I don't think you're stupid, either--just comfortably privileged, and comfortably ignorant.
I am neither of these. I am just stubborn, and I see things from a different perspective.
My point of view is formed by what I see around me, and what I see in media, personal accounts and read from history.
I am more than happy for you to put me right, so tell me what it's like living where you are, the way you are?
Post by
Squishalot
The reason usually given is that white people don’t understand the scars inflicted in the 17th and 18th centuries. But modern African-Americans haven’t been affected by it either.
If I tell jokes about %^&gots, I'm fairly certain that xaratherus and others on this board will have their scars, despite the fact that it's not the early 20th century anymore.Again, though, the context of the joke really matters. If you tell it to someone who you know doesn't hate homosexuals, and you're not in the company of someone who will be emotionally hurt by your telling of it, it's not going to be the same as if you shouted it out in a crowd, or posted it on a public message board.
The point I'm making is that Cambo is suggesting that modern people shouldn't be offended by racist remarks that bring up scars of the 17-18th century. I'm saying that the same remarks bring up scars of the 20th-21st century.
Post by
Skreeran
The reason usually given is that white people don’t understand the scars inflicted in the 17th and 18th centuries. But modern African-Americans haven’t been affected by it either.
If I tell jokes about %^&gots, I'm fairly certain that xaratherus and others on this board will have their scars, despite the fact that it's not the early 20th century anymore.Again, though, the context of the joke really matters. If you tell it to someone who you know doesn't hate homosexuals, and you're not in the company of someone who will be emotionally hurt by your telling of it, it's not going to be the same as if you shouted it out in a crowd, or posted it on a public message board.
The point I'm making is that Cambo is suggesting that modern people shouldn't be offended by racist remarks that bring up scars of the 17-18th century. I'm saying that the same remarks bring up scars of the 20th-21st century.Right right, I can understand that. I think the fallacy arises from growing up in a higher class town/neighborhood/household. I myself grew up in more or less white middle class neighborhoods all my life, and didn't encounter any instances of true blue racism. Were I to extend my own experiences to the whole of America, I might believe that racism was a problem faced by America from its birth to the late sixties that gradually dissolved after that. It was no longer acceptable to be racist in public, so I might assume that it didn't exist, or at least was very close to extinction.
I say this because that
was
largely my attitude up until a few years ago when I started studying more about the issue, and hearing personal anecdotes by people affected by racism.
Oddly enough, I suspect the issue today might have more to do with classism than racism. While there are certainly people out there who would complain about the President being a person of color, the image of the 'successful,' socially acceptable minority member who fits in seamlessly with his white coworkers is generally accepted in my experience, while the lower class, 'ghetto' minority members (Mexicans in particular, where I live) are often looked at with suspicion and mistrust. It's not necessarily the nature of one's race that seems to set people off, at least where I live, but rather the culture to which they belong.
Post by
Squishalot
It's not necessarily the nature of one's race that seems to set people off, at least where I live, but rather the culture to which they belong.
The race issue primarily arises when people look at the colour of their skin, and make an initial determination of what class / culture they belong in.
Post by
Skreeran
It's not necessarily the nature of one's race that seems to set people off, at least where I live, but rather the culture to which they belong.
The race issue primarily arises when people look at the colour of their skin, and make an initial determination of what class / culture they belong in.I'd agree with that.
Post by
Tartonga
Oddly enough, I suspect the issue today might have more to do with classism than racism.
What if both get mixed up? Here where I live, the most common and informal denomination to categorize poor people or, in some cases, uneducated people is to call them "blacks". It's an expression used to describe a way to live, talk, behave, etc. In other words, the low class is categorized as "blacks" and it's stereotyped that blacks will steal you and that they usually carry weapons. An interesting fact is that "blacks" also insult other low class people by calling them "blacks". Another interesting fact is that the blacks don't necessarily have darker skin, they can be caucasians as well.
On the other side, there is nothing wrong with calling a darker-skin friend "black". I have a couple of friends that we call just "the black" (both don't know each other), as a nickname. Perhaps you see that as wrong. I don't know. Here it's pretty normal. Same goes for fatty or gay. It's like I call a friend to his cellphone and the conversation can go pretty much like this:
My friend
: Hello?
Me
: Sup fatty? (my friend is as skinny as an iron table)
My friend
: Not much. What's up?
Me
: I'm here studying with "the black" at home.
My friend
: Haha, you guys are so gay.
Me
: I needed your books of...
NOTE
: I don't know if this is relevant to the discussion. o_O Either way, it's your fault, Skree.
Post by
Squishalot
Side question - does the use of such terms belittle the sufferings felt by said group?
For example, does constantly using the word 'retard' to describe people you don't like belittle the efforts of those who have actually been diagnosed with retarded intelligence? Does it result in people not having proper appreciation for the sufferings of the minority group, because 'it's just a word', rather than a classification?(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##Squishalot##DELIM##
Post by
ZombieJesus
Side question - does the use of such terms belittle the sufferings felt by said group?
For example, does constantly using the word 'retard' to describe people you don't like belittle the efforts of those who have actually been diagnosed with retarded intelligence? Does it result in people not having proper appreciation for the sufferings of the minority group, because 'it's just a word', rather than a classification?
I guess you also need to take a look at the type of person that constantly uses the phrase.
Someone that spams the word retard is most likely not the most intelligent person themselves.
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