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[RaP] Congressional White Caucus: Racist?
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Post by
Jubilee
However, the issue I'm trying to present isn't the usefulness of a Black Caucus, or the usefulness of a White Caucus. I'm trying to present the issue of the double standard in society concerning racism. One is accepted, and the other would cause mass anger.
My post wasn't about the usefulness of it either, that is why I used words like "right" and "legitimate". It's only a double standard if you view the issue simply on the level of basic human rights, without looking at the historical and social circumstances. It's precisely the circumstances that I tried to lay out above that give more legitimacy to the black caucus than to a white caucus.
Post by
MyTie
However, the issue I'm trying to present isn't the usefulness of a Black Caucus, or the usefulness of a White Caucus. I'm trying to present the issue of the double standard in society concerning racism. One is accepted, and the other would cause mass anger.
My post wasn't about the usefulness of it either, that is why I used words like "right" and "legitimate". It's only a double standard if you view the issue simply on the level of basic human rights, without looking at the historical and social circumstances. It's precisely the circumstances that I tried to lay out above that give more legitimacy to the black caucus than to a white caucus.
I don't buy it. Either racism is wrong, or it is ok. A racist group isn't justified by their goal. I don't see anything wrong with the congressional black caucus, but at the same time, I would care if a group of white congressmen made a white caucus. They aren't hurting anybody. Your argument presented shows the PURPOSE of the group, not the JUSTIFICATION of it. If you think that a white caucus would be wrong, but a black caucus would be right, I will disagree with you, no matter what justification you use. I find most justifications to be unethical, even if they are moral.
Post by
Jubilee
I didn't use the words right or wrong once.
Post by
gnomerdon
I'll say it here. Whites are the new minority.
Post by
168916
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MyTie
I don't buy it. Either racism is wrong, or it is ok. A racist group isn't justified by their goal.
You're begging the question. If you think the Black Caucus is a racist group, say so and argue that point. If you don't, then repeatedly talking about racist groups doesn't pertain to them.
The black Caucus is racist, but it isn't wrong. I used words like "right" and "legitimate"and then I didn't use the words right or wrong once.It seems like you are using semantics more than logic to build your argument. Either racism is right or wrong. Make up your mind and explain such. The congressional black caucus is racist. No doubt about it. But, it is accepted racism. That is "the beef" I have here. Am I wrong in seeing a problem here? I don't have a problem with their racism. I have a problem with the racism being accepted, but other racism being denied.
Post by
168916
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MyTie
The congressional black caucus is racist. No doubt about it. But, it is accepted racism. That is "the beef" I have here.
Then your beef, as others pointed out, has nothing to do with the goofball idea of a having a "white caucus".
Yes, it does. The fact that having a "white caucus" is a goofball idea, while having a "black caucus" is accepted is my beef. The two of them side by side, one accepted and one not, is the problem. My problem is the double standard.
No amount of ridicule of a white caucus or justification of a black caucus is going to sway me. The ethical legitimacy of each is not what is at question, but the social lopsidedness.
Post by
168916
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MyTie
No amount of ridicule of a white caucus or justification of a black caucus is going to sway me.
Then what in the world is this thread for? Is there a point you want to see discussed, or did you just want to let us all know that you think the Black Caucus is racist and nothing anyone says will make you think different?
The point was never to sway me. If that is why you are here, you have failed before you began. I am here not to be swayed, nor to sway. I am here to try and understand why people feel one way racism is ok. I'm here to try and understand the society I live in, a little better. I live in a society that embraces discrimination, but at the same time preaches against it. I am perplexed, and will instigate discussion about it, as is my responsibility, as is all of our responsibility.
Now, let me stop on the defensive line a bit, and play offense. Why are you picking at my beliefs personally? Do I see things differently than you? Would rather not discuss this topic? If so, why are you here?
Post by
168916
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
91278
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MyTie
I am here to try and understand why people feel one way racism is ok
As far as I understand it, they don't necessarily see it as "Ok" -- but they do see it as an inevitability from 200 years of perceived side-lining. That's what I think Jubilee is getting at, anyway, and that argument makes sense for me.
Not ALL white people were racist in the past. I have an ancestor that died in the American civil war, fighting on the side of the north. Does that mean that, since my ancestors were (as far as I know) not racist, it makes it ok for me to play on the same field as the "blacks" who were put on an uneven playing field? What I mean is: Is it ok to stereotype dead white people as racist, and dead black people as victims? If so, is it ethical to "level" the playing field against whites living today by being racist against them? If so, does it serve the blacks to be racist against the whites?
I really dislike seeing racism used as a tool for 'leveling'. On a personal level, I see people arguing that it is ok to be racist against me, based on nothing but my skin color and the actions of dead people. Am I wrong to see a problem with that?
I mean, my great great (xwhatever) grandfather died fighting for the idea that all men are created equal. Is it a cruel twist of fate that his great great (xwhatever) grandson is treated unequally based on the color of his skin?
Post by
91278
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MyTie
Is it ok to stereotype dead white people as racist, and dead black people as victims?
The broader version of that question is "is it okay for history to be written as a retrospective of popular policies which shaped the way the world is now run?" -- it's fine to recognise that something "popular" wasn't held by
everyone
, but one also has to recognise that those policies did exist and have caused the present situation.How would things have been different if the popular opinion had been that racism against blacks was wrong? You argue that the right or wrong of the issue doesn't matter. I'm saying that is all that exists. That is a large reason that American had a civil war. Some recognized that the issue of slavery was WRONG. That is what shaped the policies. They didn't exist then shape the public. The public shaped the laws, just as public opinion now shapes racism the way it currently exists. I argue that if society accepts that racism is wrong (which it largely does), then it must cease to use racism as a social tool.
You cannot lay blame for history on the feet of policy, and not on the perpetrators of those policies.
Post by
MyTie
2) The "Congressional Black Caucus" view is that there has been an implicit Congressional White Caucus sidelining black views as a minority for the past 200 years. By making it explicit from the minority side of the fence, they're offering the chance for Congress to actually deal with the issue, rather than just cry "RACIST!" or "DOUBLE STANDARD!" They may well be aware that what they are doing is a double-standard. Does that mean they don't have a point? You'd have to ask them. By asking them, you might actually get somewhere to healing an obviously very deep rift.
The answer to racism is not to be racist in return. I find it horrific that a group of senators thinks differently, and that the electorate stands for such schools of logic.
And, do you honestly think calling up a member of the Congressional Black Caucus and asking him "Do you think the Congressional Black Caucus is holding a racist double standard" is going to get me a good answer? It is not at the governing body's leisure to answer the requests of the citizens. It is the citizen's responsibility to evaluate the actions of the governing body, and either approve or disapprove of those actions, which is what we are doing here. The (paraphrased) argument that "that's the way it is, and if you don't like it, tough" really disgusts me.
Post by
168916
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MyTie
I get fired up over racism. The logic reads like this to me:It's ok for them to hate you because your grandpa might have hated their grandpa.orIt's ok because there is no right or wrongorThat's the way it is, and you can't do anything about it.orIt's ok to be racist when things might be perceived as having been unfair in the past.orIt's ok because most people think it's ok.For me it is like arguing with a person who thinks abortion is ok. No argument that could be presented to me will make me less likely to want to rip my hair out.
So, with that, I apologize for getting upset. I'm off to bed. I'd love to see where this discussion develops in my absence. I'll be back to read tomorrow.
Post by
91278
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MyTie
Aaaand at this point I'm out. If that's what you're likening it to, and if that's the reaction it's giving you, I think we return to the "What is the point of this discussion?" question.
The two arguments are not alike. My reaction to the arguments is alike: disgust. So, how could anyone think this argument doesn't have a point? The argument is: Does a double standard exist, and if so, is that ok?
I personally feel nauseated when people tell me the solution to racism is racism. It's like telling me that to put out a fire, you build a fire on top of the fire. Or, better yet, it would be like trying to put out a fire by beating to death the children of the ones who set the fire, to 'even the field'.
When we delve into a rich topic like social racism and double standards, and people start explaining that there is no point to the discussion, I begin to get suspicious.
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