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No More "Don't Ask Don't Tell"
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Post by
Dwarfiesgosquish
My personal code... Law... Thing... On serving with, under or commanding a person of the homosexual orientation, is that, if they do their job, what does it matter?
And on having to room/shower with a gay man, am I so vain to automatically assume that the person in question is actually attracted to me? And am I so condescending to think that they aren't mature enough to keep their hands to themselves, knowing that I, as a straight male, am not attracted to them?
Without the assumption that they would be attracted to other men, would it be unreasonable to see how that situation could arise. Further, is it to much to see how people could be made uncomfortable on that possibility?
I understand completely why someone might feel uncomfortable, I was just sharing my
personal
feelings...
Looking over my post again, I see that it was actually a rather useless thing to say, considering it didn't promote any discussion at all.
Post by
MyTie
Looking over my post again, I see that it was actually a rather useless thing to say, considering it didn't promote any discussion at all.
I feel your post contributed. Thanks for the clarification.
Post by
Lenience
It seems about 50 years too late, at the least (even though I know the law was introduced only about 20 years ago).
True.
At least it happened now.
Post by
pezz
MyTie, what solution are you advocating, exactly? A person would have to be extremely naive to think the legitimate problems you point out didn't exist under DADT. I'm sure we've all known people who would struggle to pass for straight if they were trying. You can't outlaw gaydar, and even if you could, telling people that they can't be who they are or they risk getting fired by a government organization has its own problems.
Post by
Magician22773
And on having to room/shower with a gay man, am I so vain to automatically assume that the person in question is actually attracted to me? And am I so condescending to think that they aren't mature enough to keep their hands to themselves, knowing that I, as a straight male, am not attracted to them?
The issue, at least as I see it, is that this point of view cannot be applied to straight men / straight women. No "reasonable" organization would require women to shower or undress in view of men, regardless of how "attractive" the women are. As MyTie pointed out.....I am married, and faithful to my wife. So should it be OK for me to go into the womens showers at the gym?
Post by
MyTie
MyTie, what solution are you advocating, exactly? A person would have to be extremely naive to think the legitimate problems you point out didn't exist under DADT. I'm sure we've all known people who would struggle to pass for straight if they were trying. You can't outlaw gaydar, and even if you could, telling people that they can't be who they are or they risk getting fired by a government organization has its own problems.
There seems to be only two logical solutions in my mind, and they both present their unique problems. I don't think they are the only solutions, just the only ones I am aware of:
1)
Provide separate bathing facilities for gays
. The problem with this is it isn't always possible, and it is expensive. Imagine trying to form squadrons of trainees to go through boot camp with only gays, or try to give the gays their own shower. The point of boot camp is "you are not special", so that would be defeating. The other side of the issue is that maybe some gay guys dont want to shower with other gay guys, for the same sexual reasons that straight men dont. Further, you can't expect them to bunk with women... so that presents a further complex and costly problem for our military.
2)
Don't allow gays in the military
. The problem here is twofold. First, you are denying some really skilled soldiers from serving in the military, and denying the military really skilled soldiers. Second, it is discrimination.
I'm definitely open to other ideas.
Post by
Heckler
How about:
3.)
Get over it.
This isn't meant to be crass, but c'mon, it's the military. The fact that they don't just have unisex showers is already a luxury. You have to deal with sub-par food, less than ideal living conditions, crappy bedding, crappy conditions in general -- not to mention putting your life at risk. The issue of "I'm not very comfortable in my cattle-car like shower" is hardly even worth recognizing as a problem. If any unwanted sexual advances or activity took place, the military has sexual harassment laws like any other workplace that would apply. If the only issue is how 'comfortable' people are in the shower with 6 other guys... well, it seems pretty silly to even acknowledge it.
Post by
204878
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Magician22773
4.
Don't ask, Don't tell
Honestly, the last 4 pages have actually illustrated why the, now previous, system may have had flaws, but also may have been the "best possible" solution to an impossible problem.
DADT actually allowed gays to serve their country, and live their lives. They could be as gay as they wanted. GAYDAR didn't matter, as because if they couldn't ask, and they didn't tell, there would be no issues.
I am going to make an assumption here that a VAST majority of the soldiers that were removed from service got EXACTLY what they wanted. They told. If they didn't tell, then someone had to have asked, and they should have been held accountable for violating the other half of the rule, and removed from service just the same.
Post by
pezz
You're missing the point. Or two points, really. The first is that 'hey you can serve your country but you have to lie about a fundamental part of yourself' is a terrible thing to say to someone, the second is that just because it isn't on the military's official books that someone's gay doesn't mean every grunt in the US army has a room-temperature IQ and gullibility to match. If you're the kind of person who is uncomfortable having gay members of your sex taking communal showers with you, and you and everyone in your platoon (what groups do armies have? This question is rhetorical. No one answer because I don't care) is sure <name of platoon member> is gay, are you going to be like 'oh well he's obviously straight because he hasn't yet said 'I'M GAY AND FABULOUS Y'ALL' in the middle of a combat zone yet'?
Post by
204878
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MyTie
I've only known 1 gay person to get kicked out. He was looking at gay porn on a military computer. That didn't sit well. He was smart enough to use a thumb drive, and not the internet, but he was dumb enough to leave the flash drive in the computer when he left. I think he could have gotten kicked out for it had it been straight porn, but I doubt it would have happened. Lots of people have straight porn and don't get in trouble.
Post by
Jubilee
Jubilee: I have stated in the past that I have earned a great deal of respect for you. I have said that I am willing to debate with you, and would very much enjoy partaking in future debates with you. I know that I don't always take the right position in a debate, and have learned quite a bit from the denzions of wowhead randomness. I would be honored to continue the discussion, and more in the future. On the same note, I would ask that you make a real and active effort to be sensitive to other people's points of view. I make this statement because in the past, I don't feel a real effort has been made. If you agree to this, then in exchange I will make a real effort to try and not read farther into your arguments than you would like.
Does this sound acceptable?
I wrote and rewrote about 20 paragraphs, but I finally settled on this one thought.
Those are good and fair ideas and what we should be doing anyways. I don't think anything is going to change, however. These arguments have way too much affect on me for me to be actively participating in them. I don't like getting mad, so I'm going to work on just saying what I think and leaving it at that.
Post by
MyTie
Jubilee: I have stated in the past that I have earned a great deal of respect for you. I have said that I am willing to debate with you, and would very much enjoy partaking in future debates with you. I know that I don't always take the right position in a debate, and have learned quite a bit from the denzions of wowhead randomness. I would be honored to continue the discussion, and more in the future. On the same note, I would ask that you make a real and active effort to be sensitive to other people's points of view. I make this statement because in the past, I don't feel a real effort has been made. If you agree to this, then in exchange I will make a real effort to try and not read farther into your arguments than you would like.
Does this sound acceptable?
I wrote and rewrote about 20 paragraphs, but I finally settled on this one thought.
Those are good and fair ideas and what we should be doing anyways. I don't think anything is going to change, however. These arguments have way too much affect on me for me to be actively participating in them. I don't like getting mad, so I'm going to work on just saying what I think and leaving it at that.
Thank you very much for this genuine response. It means a lot to me that you would come to such an amicable conclusion. I can tell that our future interactions will be meaningful and respectful.
Post by
Sweetscot
How about:
3.)
Get over it.
This isn't meant to be crass, but c'mon, it's the military. The fact that they don't just have unisex showers is already a luxury. You have to deal with sub-par food, less than ideal living conditions, crappy bedding, crappy conditions in general -- not to mention putting your life at risk. The issue of "I'm not very comfortable in my cattle-car like shower" is hardly even worth recognizing as a problem. If any unwanted sexual advances or activity took place, the military has sexual harassment laws like any other workplace that would apply. If the only issue is how 'comfortable' people are in the shower with 6 other guys... well, it seems pretty silly to even acknowledge it.
THIS. They need to provide at least semi-private showering stalls for everyone outside combat zones anyway. If you're in a combat zone your mind should be on more important things than whether Johnny likes dangly bits and who might be checking out your tushie. I wouldn't be comfortable in a shower with others of either the same or opposite sex regardless of whether they are attracted to those with the same parts as me but understand the necessity in the military's situation, but it is a pretty well known fact that if you sign up you will be seeing others and be seen by others in various modes of undress, perhaps even to seeing your guts hanging out. If you are tough enough to be military you are tough enough to handle a little discomfort regarding showering, sleeping, etc around people of either gender or most sexual orientations.
Post by
91278
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
134377
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
109094
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
134377
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
ElhonnaDS
I am a huge supporter of what they did in repealing the DADT and allowing homosexuals to serve in the military. That being said, I think it's ridiculous to say that someone who wouldn't be comfortable showering with a member of the opposite sex or someone who was gay, for the same exact reasons, "needs therapy" or needs to "get over it". Privacy is an important issue. There are a large number of women I know that won't go see a male OB/GYN because they're not comfortable. There's a legitimate reason that our society has separated all bathing and changing facilities by gender, and don't allow full nudity in public.
It's not a matter of whether or not the particular person you're talking about is attracted to you specifically. I don't imagine that most women who go exclusively to a female OB/GYN are worried abotu being hit on during a pap smear. It's about maintaining privacy, and not wanting to be physically exposed to someone for whom the naked female form is, in general, a sexual thing. And it goes both ways- you can be just as uncomfortable worrying about how unattracive someone thinks you are as you can about how attractive. To be made to strip down in front of someone who judges your gender one way or the other in that manner is uncomfortable. Xara- I know you found it not to be a problem to be naked in front of a woman who found you attractive- would you feel just as comfortable naked around a woman who had made comments about how unattractive you were? Would you not feel self-conscious at all? Woudl you find it hard to believe someone else would?
It's not discrimination against homosexuals to ask that, as a result of this, more private showering facilities be made available to everyone (not a gay and straight shower- just dividers to offer some privacy). Just like it wasn't discrimination against women to require separate living and bathing facilities to be added to accomodate their increasingly active role in the military. Certain parts of the body are taboo in our culture, and it makes people uncomfortable to expose them in general. On some level, people can overcome the discomfort when it's people who have no interest in their gender at all, but to ask that they be comfortable naked in front of anyone who happens to be around is a lot to ask.
There may be certain people who don't feel this way- strippers, nudists, porn stars or people who are just extremely un-selfconscious in general. The the majority of us, if we found out that there was suddenly going to be a unisex bathroom at work and women would have to walk past possibly occupied urinals to use the bathroom, wouldn't think there was anything wrong with people getting upset about this. If we found out that our elementary schools wanted to expand the library, and so were going to combine the boys and girls locker rooms, under the excuse "They're not really going to be attracted to each other at that age," we'd be up in arms.
It's easy, when so many of the excuses people use to exclude homosexuals from things are such utter nonsense and hate-filled garbage, to not stop to look at the few, minor issues where it's reasonable for someone to expect a concession. It's garbage that people who are gay have had such a hard time getting the right to serve in the military, and have had to live in fear of losing their livelyhood if they happened to run into someone they know while out to dinner with their spouse, or wanted to carry a photo of the person they loved and wouldn't see for the next 18 months to comfort them. Just like it was garbage to say that a woman couldn't handle the rigors of military life. But in the case of requesting some kind of shower stalls or dividers to be put into military showers, I think people are being perfectly reaonable.
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