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Discussion on IP piracy
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Post by
ChairmanKaga
It's more "righteous indignation" than anything. It's not that piracy is "right", but that the people supporting it consider it "less wrong" than the alternative position (the studios/record labels/IP owners).
Punitive damages in copyright cases are outrageous and disparate with the crime committed. If we considered only actual damages here, then the real cost might be the price of a CD ($10-20), or maybe even just 99 cents (the price of the song on iTunes). But the labels decide that it's worth suing ordinary people for hundreds of thousands of dollars -- a claim that most ordinary people cannot afford to defend themselves against, so they are forced to accept whatever equally unreasonable "settlement" the labels offer. The courts and the civil justice system are being used as a bludgeon and a tool for coercion.
The software industry figures their losses by counting up the number of pirate copies, and then multiplying by the retail cost of the software, and using that to justify ever more draconian DRM schemes. But there is plenty of evidence to suggest that the vast majority of people that pirate something were never going to buy it anyway. The losses are a mostly disingenuous claim at best, in order to make content owners seem more victimized than they actually are.
The movie studios are quick to tell us how piracy steals from the people making the movies. But as they are saying all this, they are engaging in fraudulent accounting to avoid having to pay rightful earnings to those same people. They work out percentage-of-net-profit deals with the cast and crew, and then engage in blatant money laundering in order to claim "no profit, so no money for you". The guy that played Darth Vader in
Star Wars
has never seen a dime in residual payments from his performance, because the studio has arranged the numbers in order to claim that the films
have never made a profit
, despite the obviously insane amount of money earned off those movies by the studio. And were you ever aware that
Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix
, which grossed over $1 billion worldwide,
was actually a $167 million
loss
for the studio
? The studio execs are perfectly content with screwing the people making their movies, and pocketing the difference for themselves. Record labels do the exact same things with their artists, giving them chump change in royalties while they charge us exorbitant prices for CDs. So despite all the claims that "piracy is stealing from the actors/crew/artists", even if you bought that DVD or CD, those people you think you're supporting would never see a penny. It would just wind up in the executives' pockets. They happily cry foul about people "stealing" from them while they rob their own employees blind.
If you have the impression that content owners are complete scum of the earth, you're pretty much right. And for a lot of people, that justifies their piracy. After all, you're just stealing money that was effectively stolen in the first place. It's the eye-for-an-eye principle in action.
Post by
Kanegasi
There is nothing wrong with the CONCEPT behind SOPA/PIPA. The actual bills, though, are exactly like the government trying to catch terrorists in some random country, and instead of finding them and removing them, they decide to just nuke the whole country.
Basically, these bills are overkill in the battle against piracy.
Post by
pezz
So two wrongs make a right then, that's where we are. Or, according to Adamsm, 'I don't feel like paying for it' is sufficient justification.
Post by
Adamsm
Or, according to Adamsm, 'I don't feel like paying for it' is sufficient justification.
/shrug Never said it was the right thing.
Post by
pezz
Here are a couple questions I'd pose to the 'eye for an eye' or 'they had it coming' crowd.
First, let's take it as read that big record companies/studios/etc. are basically scum*. Their actions are certainly unethical, and in some cases borderline or actually illegal. With that in mind:
1) Are you happy with the idea that justice is meted out by a broad, disorganized group of almost entirely unaccountable vigilantes? Does that seem like a good way to go about it?
2) To what extent do you think people who say 'oh I'm only doing this because those big corporations are unfair or unethical and don't care about the artists, etc. etc.' actually mean it? That is, how many people are just stealing because it's easy and fun, but need a way to assuage the cognitive dissonance it creates, so they reach out to an easy meme about vigilante justice? As a follow up question, suppose that tomorrow record companies all either go bust or turn ethical. Presumably, music, movies, and shows will still cost money. How many pirates will stop pirating and start forking over cash now that everyone is nice again? Do you think it'll be roughly the same amount of people as you had making statements about the above?
* Side note here: While I broadly agree with this claim, I question whether it's one many pirates are entitled to make. How many people do you reckon heard it from their friend who also steals stuff or from some internet forum? Do you really think that those sources of information are sufficient in making a rational decision to steal?
And one final note on Adamsm's point.
Hate to say it, but I'm a pirate and proud of it; I download music and audiobooks that cost way too much for me to justify buying them. I download movies from the cams because there are things in the theater that interest me, but I don't want to spend the cash on gas/ticket prices when I can get it for free at home. I download comics since the nearest comic book store is about an hour away(that said, I do purchase omnibus collections of series I really like) to see what is new and if I like the current story lines. I download TV and anime series for the simple fact that I don't want to spend 800+ for a full collection of all episodes of something.
This reasoning applies just as well to shoplifting.
Post by
207575
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
And one final note on Adamsm's point.
Hate to say it, but I'm a pirate and proud of it; I download music and audiobooks that cost way too much for me to justify buying them. I download movies from the cams because there are things in the theater that interest me, but I don't want to spend the cash on gas/ticket prices when I can get it for free at home. I download comics since the nearest comic book store is about an hour away(that said, I do purchase omnibus collections of series I really like) to see what is new and if I like the current story lines. I download TV and anime series for the simple fact that I don't want to spend 800+ for a full collection of all episodes of something.
This reasoning applies just as well to shoplifting.
Of course it does(agreeing with you). But I do buy comics, I do buy books, I do buy movies, and I do buy video games. The only thing I haven't purchased since downloading came out has been music mainly because most of what I enjoy listening to is next to impossible to get in my area, and I also don't have a huge trust in iTunes.
Post by
Adamsm
But you can download free music if you want, you dont need iTunes to download it, you can just download it and place it on any folder or anywhere you want on your computer.
.......You really don't get what we are talking about do you?
Post by
Adamsm
Except, if you download that free music, you aren't paying for it, which is the point Pezz is making; please, pay attention.
Post by
Squishalot
You're misunderstanding. The person downloading the copy isn't paying, but the person who uploaded the file probably did.
You're missing the point. The person who finally ends up with the copy didn't pay for the ownership rights. And again - the person who uploads it commits a contract violation by not adhering to the terms of the purchase.
How does anyone determine that? You do it every time someone offers to sell you something. Something about the value of money, value of entertainment, length of entertainment, whether they're &*!@heads. I dunno.
The fact that you can't provide an objective measure of worth is a good reason why pirating and paying for it afterwards isn't a reasonable system. Imagine trying to run a shop that way - selling apples, and letting people pay you what they think the apple is worth. You have no ability to plan or make decisions, and no certainty on whether the money you earn can feed your family, or pay your mortgage. As Koper pointed out in a different thread on ad blocking, have a think about the people who are actually being harmed by your actions.
However, I reject the principle that exclusive ability to profit on intellectual property is the most efficient method to enforce legally.
Would you prefer it to be contract-based as we have it now? IP owners suing for damages on the basis of breach of contract?
I think a better system would be if artists felt secure in their ability to access their means of production (recording studios) and were remunerated fairly, removing the ability of recording labels to derive a profit from other people's work. Then the individuals that find the most efficient means of distribution (probably torrents) can release their work for them.
The thing is, the bulk of artists at the moment have chosen the individuals who best release their work for them. They chose the recording labels. What you're asking is for them to realise that there are cheaper, better methods of distribution. Have you ever considered what prompts an artist to use Sony Music as a record label, rather than their local IT guy with a torrent server?
Not all of our music is live.
I know, but my point still stands. We're talking about the 'good product' - the premium that people are willing to pay for premium goods and services that the average person can't get.
To your other points - pezz has fairly addressed them.
So despite all the claims that "piracy is stealing from the actors/crew/artists", even if you bought that DVD or CD, those people you think you're supporting would never see a penny. It would just wind up in the executives' pockets. They happily cry foul about people "stealing" from them while they rob their own employees blind.
As I said to DoctorLore - consider who it is that you're actually harming by pirating. I can guess that it's probably not the executives of the labels. Correlation, at least, suggests otherwise.
There is nothing wrong with the CONCEPT behind SOPA/PIPA. The actual bills, though, are exactly like the government trying to catch terrorists in some random country, and instead of finding them and removing them, they decide to just nuke the whole country.
Basically, these bills are overkill in the battle against piracy.
As I said before, I'd like to keep this away from SOPA / PIPA, but I appreciate what you're trying to say.
Now take a look at iTunes. They are definitely not having money problems. I can purchase music online.
I can't do the same for a movie
. TL:DR, the entertainment industry is only having problems because they refuse to update with the times.
I beg to differ.
But I do buy comics, I do buy books, I do buy movies, and I do buy video games. The only thing I haven't purchased since downloading came out has been music mainly because most of what I enjoy listening to is next to impossible to get in my area, and I also don't have a huge trust in iTunes.
Does that justify me stealing mangoes (hard to get and expensive), just because I happen to buy my apples and oranges?
Alternatively, and a more precise version of what you're saying - I can buy my Final Fantasy music scores from Japan and have them shipped over, or I can download them for free from a torrent site. Because I'm buying FFXIII-2 in stores here, I should be justified in downloading the music scores,
even though they're completely and utterly different things
.(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##Squishalot##DELIM##
Post by
Adamsm
But I do buy comics, I do buy books, I do buy movies, and I do buy video games. The only thing I haven't purchased since downloading came out has been music mainly because most of what I enjoy listening to is next to impossible to get in my area, and I also don't have a huge trust in iTunes.
Does that justify me stealing mangoes (hard to get and expensive), just because I happen to buy my apples and oranges?As said in regards to Pezz comment about shop-lifting: Of course not.
Alternatively, and a more precise version of what you're saying - I can buy my Final Fantasy music scores from Japan and have them shipped over, or I can download them for free from a torrent site. Because I'm buying FFXIII-2 in stores here, I should be justified in downloading the music scores,
even though they're completely and utterly different things
.
Justified? Never said that. Easier to do? Of course. I know what I'm doing is wrong(I've never said other wise); that being said...I guess I just don't care that much. I could make the grand sweeping comment that everyone does it, and while it hurts the royalty fees in regards to the taken product.....it really depends on where you get it from: Someone makes an encode of something they watch on TV then distribute it to the online community(such as the same day anime scans) is doing so before the collection of the series has been put out. Someone buys a copy of CD and uploads it to the net, which in turns get's more people interested in the band; some will keep on downloading it, others will go out and buy the CD itself. I get a cam of a movie now, then when it comes out on actual DVD will get that for the special features.
Of course, that's leaving out things which aren't available to the mass market: A large number of the animes I have downloaded and burned to DVD are those that have never seen a release over seas, and have only ever been subbed by the people of the web so even I purchased direct from Japan, I would be able to watch them, but wouldn't be able to understand them.
Completely leaving out that you are getting the same collector's edition I am, so you'll be getting the music for free heh.
Post by
207575
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Squishalot
I know what I'm doing is wrong(I've never said other wise)
Didn't you say you were proud of it?
Of course, that's leaving out things which aren't available to the mass market: A large number of the animes I have downloaded and burned to DVD are those that have never seen a release over seas, and have only ever been subbed by the people of the web so even I purchased direct from Japan, I would be able to watch them, but wouldn't be able to understand them.
Not necessarily true - you'd be surprised how many Japanese releases have English subs or dubs these days. We've got a lot of them here in Australia, but that doesn't stop people from watching it all online anyway.
Completely leaving out that you are getting the same collector's edition I am, so you'll be getting the music for free heh.
Not for free - I'm paying shipping and time and everything else associated with buying something from overseas and importing it. That being said, I import the music scores (i.e. the books with all the music notes for learning how to play them) directly from Japan.
I stand corrected! Thanks for the info, I might actually use that.
No worries, any time :) One of the reasons why I'm fairly anti-piracy is because I actually believe that piracy hinders innovation. Companies take a massive risk in doing online streaming and video rentals and the like, because of how easy it is to rip these and distribute, in much the same way that people used to make copies of videos rented at the local store.
If piracy wasn't as big an issue, I reckon more companies would be willing to start providing cheaper and cheaper services, in much the same way that content generators use iTunes, the iStore and Android Market to provide cheap music, games and applications without fear that they won't be able to pay the bills.(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##Squishalot##DELIM##
Post by
Adamsm
Didn't you say you were proud of it?I said I was proud of being a pirate, not that I didn't know what was right or wrong.
Not necessarily true - you'd be surprised how many Japanese releases have English subs or dubs these days. We've got a lot of them here in Australia, but that doesn't stop people from watching it all online anyway.But not a mass thing of them; there are also a lot of great animes that, without the torrent sites, I would have never known existed.
Here's a little question for you Squish;
what do you think of a site like this?
It gets the newest manga out there and uploaded in the same week. Should that be removed?(of course, onemanga was shut down heh).
Post by
207575
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Squishalot
I said I was proud of being a pirate, not that I didn't know what was right or wrong.
That implies that you're proud of doing wrong. (Not trying to twist or mince words or anything, just coming to the logical conclusion of what you're saying).
Here's a little question for you Squish;
what do you think of a site like this?
It gets the newest manga out there and uploaded in the same week. Should that be removed?(of course, onemanga was shut down heh).
Depends - is the manga being uploaded legitimately? Do the owners of the site have agreements with the rights owners to distribute it in that manner? If not, then yes, I think it should be removed, or at least, that the site owners should try to cut a deal with the rights owners to keep it going legitimately. I think the services being offered are great. However, I think that they should be offered in a commercially responsible manner, and that includes obtaining legitimate rights from the content rights owners.
Obviously the interest is there, or else piracy wouldn't exist. If a store kept seeing that people were flocking to a competitor because that competitor sold item X in a particular way, wouldn't it make sense to try and compete? As opposed to keep selling it in the traditional way and keep seeing the customers going to the other guy?
Sortof. If, as a store owner, I saw people flocking to a competitor because they sold item X in a particular way, I would look and see how they were selling it:
1) Online; and
2) Free.
Which one of those should I adjust my business model for? How can I compete when people are giving away products (i.e. uploading them for free)? And if I'm still making more money than them, why should I change my business model?
I've got no issues with iTunes at all. The issue is that despite iTunes, people are still going and downloading illegally. For each song downloaded from iTunes, how many times is the song ripped and distributed onwards? iTunes has a niche of sorts in that it's tied directly in to a desirable physical product (i.e. iPods and iPhones). Ditto with Android Market. In Australia, BigPond (run by the biggest telco here) offers pay-per-movie download services to set-top boxes, but the key thing is that people
want
to have the set-top box for other purposes, and only then will they use the pay-per-movie service, because of its convenience.
People buy from iTunes because it's worth paying 99c for the convenience of not having to torrent a song. The problem is, it's very costly to set up a convenient distribution network, which is why they don't have as much incentive to do so.
Post by
Adamsm
I said I was proud of being a pirate, not that I didn't know what was right or wrong.
That implies that you're proud of doing wrong. (Not trying to twist or mince words or anything, just coming to the logical conclusion of what you're saying).Oh I know; and it's true to a point that I am a little proud of it. Like I said though, it's the fact that I live in bum-$%^& no where that makes getting pretty much anything really hard to get, without paying really expensive shipping fees from other areas. As I also said, if I download and really like something, 99% of the time, I'm going to buy a real version of it as well.
Here's a little question for you Squish;
what do you think of a site like this?
It gets the newest manga out there and uploaded in the same week. Should that be removed?(of course, onemanga was shut down heh).
Depends - is the manga being uploaded legitimately? Do the owners of the site have agreements with the rights owners to distribute it in that manner? If not, then yes, I think it should be removed, or at least, that the site owners should try to cut a deal with the rights owners to keep it going legitimately. I think the services being offered are great. However, I think that they should be offered in a commercially responsible manner, and that includes obtaining legitimate rights from the content rights owners.Most of those who are uploading it are those who own the books the manga come from; similar to how people are redistributing things from iTunes and the like; most of the scans and adding in other language is coming from volunteer workers, same as those who do subbing on the brand new episodes.
Post by
Squishalot
Most of those who are uploading it are those who own the books the manga come from; similar to how people are redistributing things from iTunes and the like; most of the scans and adding in other language is coming from volunteer workers, same as those who do subbing on the brand new episodes.
In that case, yes, it should be removed. Note that they're advertising on their site - they're even profiting from the piracy of the manga.
Now, if they came to an agreement with the content owners and organised for volunteers or even paid workers to sub and re-upload, that would be an entirely different beast.
Post by
Adamsm
It's already volunteer groups who sub it for them, since a lot of those mangas have never seen the light of day over here, and even things like One Piece, Bleach, and Naruto are months behind the Japanese release.
Post by
Squishalot
Yeah I know, my point is that those volunteers should be sanctioned by the content right owners.
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