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Kony 2012 - 4/20 Anyone?
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Post by
ElhonnaDS
Totally noticed. Just not sure how to even begin to address the problems there, other than on a topic by topic basis.
Post by
91278
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
ElhonnaDS
That I can kind of understand. It's just when I read an argument that has all sorts of logical disconnects within it, even based on the information the person perceives as true, or seems to lack basic understanding of concepts that I assume most people take for granted, that I am at a total loss.
Post by
91278
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
ElhonnaDS
I haven't :)
If I had, I wouldn't see the point in debating anymore.
Post by
gamerunknown
"lazy" stamp from local population.
Believe me,
there are
individuals
and
groups
willing to sacrifice themselves. The difference is that they're less likely to be reported or acknowledged when suppressed by their government. That's not an issue with how lazy the individuals are in the country. It's usually a global issue where repressive regimes receive international support (Russian arms support for Syria, US arms support for Saudi Arabia). Here's an analogy (sorry Sinepse). Imagine if Europe fell to Communism in the 90s. The USSREU alliance formed an allegiance with, say, Don Black, who seized power in a military coup and is now suppressing everyone except protestant Nordic males (despite that being utterly contradictory to even the USSRs lax standards). Would that mean that women, blacks, Jews, religious minorities, were lazy? Or that the systems of politics and indoctrination formed a highly repressive atmosphere...?
You personally have advocated doing nothing in the face of oppression
. You should at least admit the tremendous social pressure against dissent in despotic regimes.
Not to mention that individuals can display startling
tenacity and dignity
in spite of their economic circumstances, but that it may not be widely reported.
Women and children are raped and beaten in camps the West supposedly provides for their safety.. against, you know being raped and beaten. Food deliveries are unreliable, often insufficient and often stolen as well. This is supposed to be a safe environment where the "lazy" people go.
Do you have a specific cite? I'm not doubting that it's possible, but I see no reason to
discourage donations to charity
. If specific charities are notorious for it though, it's obviously worth reconsidering donating to them.
Post by
331902
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
331902
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
557473
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
gamerunknown
I'll provide you a reference anyway because I don't wish to gloss over the issue.
Thank you for the link. It appears that some of the research into the issue was conducted by Amnesty International and was reported by a non-profit. I agree that the refugee camp solution is not ideal, but I don't think that the situations are aggravated by charitable donations. I think the social issues may even
be able to be alleviated given adequate provisions.
1) Donating to most charities is inefficient.
Compared to what?
Edit: Misread this. Which charities specifically do you think are inefficient with their funds (other than Invisible Children).
2) Because if there is no local support, they won't be able to do anything.
Two
examples
.
5) So conclusion, no reason to do anything, because if people are inactive, we can remove dictators as much as we want we will just get new ones to replace them, since people show
no initiative on their own.
Did
you
click
on
any
of
my
links
?
You have to do more too, if you want to change the world.
Fantastic. We've established that everyone advocating for charity is a slacktivist/fauxtivist. What precisely are you proposing that is superior to that?
Random aside, my family used to rent a room in our house to a Ukranian guy that worked with my dad for £35 a week. He was on a student visa here and sent all his money (that wasn't used for rent or transport, my family fed him) back to his wife and son. He was only a little older than I am now, but beat my dad in three moves in chess. His parents were both university lecturers (one in chemistry) during the collapse of the USSR and they became street cleaners afterwards.
Post by
Murrdurr
Apollo Creed will win this as long as there isnt any big Soviets getting in his way.
Post by
ElhonnaDS
Well, it looks like people decided to stop arguing with me. Oh, well. I won't proclaim victory, but I have only two conclusions:
1) What you say. That I am ignorant and do not understand those people.
You would have been right if you stopped there. Sadly, there's more.
Tell me- if there had been no schooling available to teach your friend how to read, how would she have proved she was smart enough for MIT? What if there was a school, but by going there there was a good chance she would be labeled as a &*!@# and a traitor, and subjected to violence? Would she still have made that decision?
If foreign corporations hadn't been able to set up shop in your country- possibly because the government didn't allow it, or because the unstable political violence made it a poor choice to invest in, how could your father have gotten a job at one?
And for either of those people, were they risking death, rape, torture, to achieve their goals? Would your father have been lazy if he had refused to look for a better job because it was illegal and if he had been found out they would have come and shot your mother and you in the head?
And, you never did answer my questions about how someone is supposed to organize a resistance when there is no educational system to teach them to read or write, and so printed material can't be used to organize people? How, if a woman walking by herself is a crime, she is ever supposed to meet with other women to even begin to discuss action?
And, since you asked before, here's a couple of women's rights activists/groups that are from within some of these countries. You know, the groups you insisted didn't exist, which took me 15 minutes to google.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_Association_of_the_Women_of_Afghanistan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghan_Women%27s_Network
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_rights_movement_in_Iran#Societies_and_Organizations
Not a huge list, to be sure, but I didn't look very long. I'm also kind of curious how much official information you expect to be on google about organizations that are illegal, and in which open membership is a death sentence. It's not really something you put on your facebook page.
The problem, Boron, is that your view is so incredibly limited to your own experiences, that you don't even realize how completely ignorant you are of the reality of the rest of the world. You don't even know how much you don't know, and so you don't even know that there's information out there you could be learning from. That, and certain statements that seem to indicate that you have less basic empathy for other human beings that I have when I see someone destroy a teddy bear, is what has led to the rest of us having reached the decision to leave it alone (after this post anyway). There's no use in arguing about what color the sky is with a blind man who has never seen it.
Post by
557473
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
ElhonnaDS
Fantastic. We've established that everyone advocating for charity is a slacktivist/fauxtivist. What precisely are you proposing that is superior to that?
Work against things like CAP.
Support Fair Trade:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_trade
In general, we need to solve problems (y)our countries cause to those in need and after that point, we can debate about the need of charity after that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_trade#What_happens_to_the_money
You mean fair trade where only 11% is going to the exporter, and as little as 1.8% goes to the farmer for some products?
Of course, if organizations got involved that were in it for reasons like actually helping people, and not just the money, then they'd probably get more. But those would be charities, so...hmmm...
Also, didn't you just say a few posts up that, because of your dad and your friend no one should ever have to rely on anything other than hard work to get ahead in life. It sure sounds to me like you think that conditions in some countries need people on the outside (Fair Trade Organizations) to help them get out of the situation they're in economically.
So- which do you believe? That people should be responsible for themselves, and all held to the same standard regardless of where they are or what circumstances they're in? Or that in some countries people are in the kind of situation that only actions by outside organizations will help?
Post by
557473
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
ElhonnaDS
You're not even going to try to answer any of my other questions are you?
Do you really feel that someone who doesn't achieve a goal because they don't feel like studying that much is really in the same boat as someone who doesn't achieve a goal because they are unwilling to watch their wife and children raped, tortured and killed? In terms of how much of their inaction is "their fault"?
What do you think your father would/could have done if Mars and other foreign companies could not legally set up shop there, or weren't because they felt it was unsafe? How would he have "made his way" if there were really no options available like that?
Post by
OverZealous
Edit:
@Entroryutd and Elhonna: I listed cases where it worked. If you are afraid to go against the regime, and you are not ready to face the circumstances, you are weak and deserve what is happening to you.
I'm sorry, but...
what
? What you're saying is that if you are afraid to go up against a regime that will not hesitate for a moment to (I'm unsure if I should link some of the stories I've read on this, but if you want me to I could go ahead and link a few) violate your property, torture you, rape your children, and kill every relative you have, you are
weak
and
deserve such treatment
? I'm sorry, but that is, and I have nothing else to say on the subject, indescribably stupid.
Post by
ElhonnaDS
It's like arguing with an NPC, isn't it OZ? Like, not something a real person would say, but lines you'd write for a book or a game to make a character someone who you'd cheer for if Bruce Willis blew up his helicopter as he was getting away, or who you'd root for to be the first person the zombies got. LoL.
Post by
ElhonnaDS
Sorry for the double post, but I just want to leave
this
here. You know, in case anyone wanted to take it or anything.
Post by
557473
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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