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Who would you give up your seat for?
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Post by
Azazel
Eating with a fork can't be seen as sexist by anyone :P
Somebody probably does, but you know what I'm trying to say lol.
Post by
Squishalot
Your grandma has flawed values. A woman chosen from society at random has no more right to that seat than you do.
Maybe. She also told me to eat with my fork, not my hands. I don't know why. I have a right to pick up my food with my hands. Outdated manners. Am I right, donnymurph?
Actually, I eat with a spoon / fork / knife / chopsticks / <insert other appropriate utensil> because it's far more practical than eating using <insert inappropriate utensil>. That's why I eat hamburgers by picking it up with my hands and drink soup using a spoon, because it's more practical. I'm not sure why your grandma didn't teach you that reason.
Post by
MyTie
I was being facetious.
Post by
Squishalot
I know, but you could have used a decent example, at least. "Manners" is a horrible reason for doing anything, because you're just reinforcing stereotyped behaviours from the past. If there isn't a good reason for doing something, it's perfectly valid to question why we're doing it at all.
That being said, if that's how you were taught, so be it.(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##Squishalot##DELIM##
Post by
MyTie
Why can't offering a chair just be taken at face value? If someone is willing to stand so that a person can sit comfortably, then why is that bad? I understand sexism, but I believe it is a good thing when men treat the women of their society with extra respect and care. By definition, that is sexist, but I don't think it is a bad thing.
Post by
Squishalot
Why do you feel they deserve / need the extra respect and care?
The point that Donny, Patty and I are trying to make is that there is an element of sexism, the underlying view that women somehow
need
the extra assistance, which is why we're providing it to them. That is a bad thing.
Post by
MyTie
Why do you feel they deserve / need the extra respect and care?
The point that Donny, Patty and I are trying to make is that there is an element of sexism, the underlying view that women somehow
need
the extra assistance, which is why we're providing it to them. That is a bad thing.
Women, on average, are physically smaller than men. They aren't as strong. Individually, this isn't a rule that can be followed, but as a general rule they are. Men and women aren't the same. They aren't equal. Neither is superior to the other, but they certainly don't equal each other. They are different. Men need to take great care to ensure they are sensitive to the women around them. For instance, my wife is not as physically capable as I am. If she and I were on a bus, with only one seat available, I would let her take it. I would hope that if I weren't there, someone would give her their seat. I want to be "that nice guy" for someone's wife, or mom, or sister.
I think if my greatest insensitivity is being sensitive to women and overly respectful to them, then I'm doing pretty good.
Besides, look at my answer. It isn't JUST women. I would also give my seat to an older male, even slightly older. Age 40 would get my seat. It isn't that I think I am physically superior to that guy, but it is just a matter of respect.
Post by
Patty
And women are, on average, more flexible than men. Does that mean women should bend down to pick things up for us to save our backs the problem? And how frequently do they do so? :P
Post by
Thror
The point that Donny, Patty and I are trying to make is that there is an element of sexism, the underlying view that women somehow
need
the extra assistance, which is why we're providing it to them. That is a bad thing.
Thinking that women
need
the place is wrong, indeed. There are some gender differences, but both genders are equally proficient at...
standing
.
Anyone should be free to choose whether he wishes to offer extra respect and care to whoever he wishes, and likewise, anyone should be free to choose whether to accept or decline said respect and care. If MyTie wants to be extra kind to women, then why not. Men do not have any right to demand extra kindness from him, and MyTie didn't say that he treats men with disrespect.
If he said he is only kind to women and treats men with less respect than is generally expected, that would be wrong. Also if he would not accept a no from a woman and would try to "force" his kindness upon her, that would be wrong too.
Post by
Squishalot
@ MyTie - as Patty pointed out before - it is a little thing. I don't think anyone would actually criticise you for your view.
But, if we're talking about giving our seats to people less physically able than us, why wouldn't you give it to someone much younger than you, like a 12 year old boy? Certainly, he'd be less physically able than you, right?
@ Thror - If MyTie and others should be free to choose whether to offer extra respect and care to whoever they wish, should I be free to choose whether to offer extra jobs and pay to whoever I wish? Wouldn't that be a way of offering extra respect and care to those people?(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##Squishalot##DELIM##
Post by
MyTie
12 year old? No. A 12 year old should be MUCH more physically able to stand than I. When I was 12 I could run all day long. Now my right foot hurts if I spend too much time on it Additionally, 12 year olds need to learn to respect their elders.
PS. I know you are playing devil's advocate right now. You do that too much.
Post by
gamerunknown
I'm much more able to stand now then when I was 12, especially after a day's physical activities.
Also, I've eaten with chapatis instead of forks before: it's quite fun. So are chopsticks, especially with jelly beans.
Oh and really sensual eating could be
sexist
.
Post by
Thror
@ Thror - If MyTie and others should be free to choose whether to offer extra respect and care to whoever they wish, should I be free to choose whether to offer extra jobs and pay to whoever I wish?
Of course. Are people obliged to hire au pairs to take care of their children? No. Can they, if they wish to? Yes.
Post by
Squishalot
A 12 year old is weaker than you are, but proportional to their weight, they're fine. A woman may be weaker than you are, but proportional to what they need to hold up, they're fine too. Why should a woman be less capable of standing than a man in such a way that you would need to give up your seat for them?
I was trying to find an example of a male who would be less physically able than you who wasn't simply 'older'. Someone excessively tall, who had to stoop over when standing or something. My point is, going out of your way for half the species just because you believe, as a general rule, they're less physically able to is discriminatory, when the vast majority of them will be just as physically able to as you, or better even, if your right foot is busted.
And I'm only really arguing this because you're continuing to try to justify your position. I was ready to drop it about three posts ago. My point to Thror still stands though (pun intended).
Of course.
That would be discriminatory, to hire and pay extra benefits to women only, and in breach of laws in most developed countries about discriminating on the basis of race, religion, marital status, or any number of other conditions.
Anyway, off for the night. Night all.(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##Squishalot##DELIM##
Post by
MyTie
And I'm only really arguing this because you're continuing to try to justify your position.
Well there is your problem. You are trying to argue "against" something benign. So I offer my seat on a bus. So I'm overly careful based on sex. Whether that is right or wrong it's not going to cause harm. There is no need to argue against it. You aren't going to change my mind.
Post by
Squishalot
Why can't offering a chair just be taken at face value? If someone is willing to stand so that a person can sit comfortably, then why is that bad?
There is no need to argue against it. Takes two to play, MyTie.
I'm open minded enough to say that you could possibly change my mind, but I don't see the merits in it from what you've said, that's all.
Post by
MyTie
Takes two to play, MyTie.I'm not arguing that you are wrong for not offering your chair to ladies.I'm open minded enough to say that you could possibly change my mind, but I don't see the merits in it from what you've said, that's all.
Fair enough.
Post by
Thror
Of course.
That would be discriminatory, to hire and pay extra benefits to women only, and in breach of laws in most developed countries about discriminating on the basis of race, religion, marital status, or any number of other conditions.
I was answering to this question: "Should I be free to choose whether to offer extra jobs and pay to whoever I wish?"
Notice how it is a very simple and generic question. You could have been more specific if you wanted to pull the "that's against the law" card at me. Is there anything wrong about the au pair example I have given? (I "like" how you did not quote that part of my post.)
If someone is an employer with some actual employees, and he would just decide to hire a woman and pay her extra, that would be wrong. Employees actually do have a right to expect fairness from their employer. And not just that. The position of an employer is bound by so many laws, that I find the jump in logic you did from chivalry to this ridiculous. Seriously, what the hell. We are talking seats in a bus here, and you are like "oh yeah? and how about <this absolutely unrelated thing>?" Why the hell did I even answer that. Just to be told "HA! That's against the law!" Awesome Squish, you totally nailed this discussion about bus seats here and I feel outplayed, not.
Post by
931961
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Thror
Because there is a good reason for them. Chivalry is rooted in belief that men are superior over women, which is something we do not believe in these times. You think that is the only valid reason for why someone would want to be a gentleman? (Just to avoid any semantic crap, let's say that in my dictionary, a gentleman is a man who acts chivalrous, a.k.a. offers seats, opens doors, etc. to women.)
Being a gentleman is
nice
. There are also women who find it
nice
when men are chivalrous. And guess what, that is as good a reason as any. Thinking that every gentleman is a condescending jackass who believes that women can not stand properly and can not open their own doors, move their chairs or put on their jackets, is flawed. I feel happy when I can open the door for my girlfriend, and so does she. That is all there is to it. And you know why we feel like that? Because that is how we were raised. Chivalry is a nice concept because it can bring a little joy into peoples life, and if done properly, it does not do any harm in any possible way. I do intend to raise my children to enjoy chivalry as well.
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