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Specialisation Names & Class 4th Spec Ideas
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Post by
759807
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Pwntiff
Let's see. I've skimmed the thread and I'll give my 2c.
I'm not even going to touch the lore aspect of Warlocks healing because I'm not a loremaster. That said, in every RPG setting I've played in, only certain types of magic can heal, usually the one(s) associated with divinity.
==
I'm going to look at overall balance of the roles first. Since this is speculation for Mists, I'll set it in Mists.
11 Classes x 3 Specs/Class + Guardian Druid = 34 Specs
Tanks: Prot Warrior, Prot Paladin, Blood DK, Guardian Druid, Brewmaster Monk = 5 Tanks (~15%)
Healers: Mistweaver Monk, Disc Priest, Holy Priest, Holy Paladin, Resto Druid, Resto Shaman = 6 Healers (~18%)
mDPS: Feral Druid, Ret Paladin, Rogue x3, Enh Shaman, Warrior x2, DK x2, Windwalker Monk = 11 mDPS (~32%)
rDPS: Balance Druid, Hunter x3, Mage x3, Shadow Priest, Ele Shaman, Warlock x3 = 12 rDPS (~35%)
Math Check:
5+6+11+12 = 34
15+18+32+35 = 100%
Your proposed 4th Specs add: 3 Tank, 4 Healer, 3 rDPS, and 0 mDPS
8 Tanks / 44 Specs = ~18% (+3%)
10 Healers / 44 Specs = ~23% (+5%)
11 mDPS / 44 Specs = 25% (-7%)
15 rDPS / 44 Specs = ~34% (-1%)
Typical progression 25man group (anyone correct me if I'm wrong, I've not done raid assembly since Ulduar): 3 Tanks, 6 Healers, 8 rDPS, 8 mDPS.
Tanks account for 12% of the raid, Healers 24%, and ranged and melee DPS are 32% each.
Seems to me that Blizzards numbers are closer to what is expected to be needed for end-game content than your numbers, especially once you consider that 6th healer is likely to be a swing Healer/DPS.
Maybe you added more tanks and healer because you feel there is a short supply of them. There isn't. The only critically short supply of tanks or healers is in Dungeon Finder because most of them run guild groups or just don't want to deal with frequent headaches the system can provide in terms of flat-out bad players.
TL;DR - I don't see a need for every class to get a 4th spec, and even if they did, it would probably be an even increase across the board.
Post by
Pwntiff
In the WoW universe there is no such thing as a Void Knight. There are no Scouts. Why would adding it to WoW make it any better?
Previous to the news about MoP there were no such things as monks or pandas in WoW either (lorewise yes but not in game).
Wrong. Just wrong, in so many ways.
Scarlet Monk
and
Chen's Empty Keg
disagree. Besides if they exist in lore, they exist in the universe, just like Nathanyal said.
Post by
759807
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
759807
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
....Because most of the Pandarens were hidden in the Mists. But that doesn't mean there weren't monks already on Azeroth; the Scarlet Crusade had multiples of them trained up after all.
Post by
Pwntiff
But the point I was making is they exist lorewise, and so can be added to actual gameplay without inventing anything.
The keg was a pre-Cata quest that sent you to an Orc in Rachet who'd actually travelled with Chen Stormstout a Pandaren Brewmaster who travelled across Azeroth.
Existing in lore = Existing in universe = Potential to exist in game at any second.
Post by
759807
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Post by
Adamsm
Pwntiff if you add more roles to each class you give more options. How you choose to compose your raid group is entirely up to you.
But it still falls into the same trap that happened with RIFT: 30+ specs....and only about 4 viable ones.
Post by
Pwntiff
Alright, easier numbers then.
A 5-man heroic group needs 1 Tank, 1 Healer, and 3 DPS. That's 20% Tank, 20% Healer, 60% DPS.
Assuming the player base chooses a primary role along the same lines of those percentages (and I'd wager it's close), why would you need a surplus of tank specs?
You can only add so much "depth" before everything becomes an amalgam of other things or the entire system becomes so convoluted that it's inherently broken. Have more choices besides Defender, Priest, Mage, and Fighter is depth enough.
Post by
759807
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
759807
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Pwntiff
Alright, you want more options? All 11 classes each have a tanking, a healing, a caster OR melee spec, and a deidcated PvP spec. That gives every class the option to do anything. See the flaw in this design?
And if WoW just had Defender, Priest, Mage, and Fighter then such a dull game it would be.
Did you even get the gorram point I made with that sentence?
Post by
Nathanyal
Pwntiff if you add more roles to each class you give more options. How you choose to compose your raid group is entirely up to you.
But it still falls into the same trap that happened with RIFT: 30+ specs....and only about 4 viable ones.
Yes, this is what I was getting at up there earlier.
I haven't played Rift myself, but I have read what others thought about it. The one thing I noticed is that yes they do have all those different combinations, but there are so many to choose from that it can get overwhelming. And when you get right down to it, there is always one combination that works better than the others, and that is the one the majority will pick if they want to be the best they can be.
Just because there is more, does not mean that it is better. All it does is make the game harder to balance, and requires more effort on those developing it. One of my favorite acronyms is
K.I.S.S.
Creeping featurism
is also mentioned.
Post by
759807
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
Why not have a surplus of tank specs? It gives you more options - i don't see what's bad about that. And if you want to argue that there's only x amount of viable tank specs then why aren't all players tanking as a pally or as a warrior or as DK or as a druid? Well because players like different things - one player might love dpsing as a cat and prowling while another loves having a ghoul pet handy - on the side they can choose to tank. Likewise a shaman player may have chosen their class because they love to hurl lighting - but now, if they want to, they can also tank with a their new 4th spec.Shaman tanking existed in BC....and while it was fine for some bosses within Kara(only after the Shaman had scrambled for every single tank enchants, weapon and shield((both of which should in all honesty go to Warrior/Pallys first))), but for any bosses past that point, including Gruul, Mag and ZA(same gear level roughly as Kara) they just got annihilated because they didn't have the right optimization. The pure amount of effort needed to transform a spec into a viable tank spec is a lot more mind blowing then most people think.
It's not about necessity here - players don't need a 4th spec (if theorycrafting comes around there probably is 1 best tank spec - so why have the other 3?)... it's just about having more options.Because each of the Tank specs can be tuned for specific fights; also, there are 5 tank specs now, you seem to be leaving out the Brewmaster for some strange reason.
Post by
Pwntiff
Nathanyal you just said that you weren't against having a 4th spec so don't even start lol.
Pwntiff but each class being able to fill each role isn't what i'm suggesting. You've just taken it to the extreme to try and prove your point. And no i guess i must not have gotten your gorram point.
You're right. I hyperbolized. The flaw is more apparent on the full extreme, but it's still there at any attempt to diversify the classes more than they already are.
Reread the original sentence (with one minor grammatical correction):
Having more choices besides Defender, Priest, Mage, and Fighter is depth enough.
Post by
759807
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
@Adamsm... but you're not transforming a spec here for Shamans - you're adding a spec (thought we'd established that by now). Doing so allows you to make a proper tank without it impacting upon your other specs which was the case before because they were trying to combine a tank with a dps into the same spec. Yes i did forget brewmaster.
Still has the same issues though; at least with the addition of the Guardian to Druids, you are splitting up an existing spec to better maximize Ferals. But attempting that on all classes is a stretch, especially when you start adding in specializations they aren't meant to have; such as tanks and heals to classes not designed to do so.
Post by
759807
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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