This site makes extensive use of JavaScript.
Please enable JavaScript in your browser.

Religion

Post by MyTie

I don't want to be around forever.

Why not?

Post by Atik

I don't want to be around forever.

Why not?

Because it would be annoying and boring and well...eugh for me.

Heaven or Hell, really. One you are tortured forever, the other (as far as I've ever understood) you sit aroud and do effectively nothing.

There is no more work or contribution or anything anymore. You're just there, and the idea of that doesn't appeal to me at all.

Post by Magician22773

Hell, I believe, may or may not be the "fire and brimstone" torture chamber that it is so commonly believed to be. Hell could simply be the eternal seperation from God and Heaven, and all its glory. Basicly, what you just described. An eternity of nothing., but knowing what could have been. The Bible says that "every" knee shall bow before God, so that means even non-believers will see God and Heaven. They will know what they are missing, and will be cast out for eternity.

The Bible gives us some glimpse of what Heaven will be like, but much of it is likely just metaphors that fit the time that it was written. Jesus said the Lords house has many rooms, I don't think that their is a house in Heaven that has billions of rooms. It just means there is a place there for me. The inn will not be full. I don't think anyone really knows what to expect, but I know it will be glorious. God has promised us that much, and thats all I need to know at this point.

Post by Sas148

Hell, I believe, may or may not be the "fire and brimstone" torture chamber that it is so commonly believed to be. Hell could simply be the eternal seperation from God and Heaven, and all its glory. Basicly, what you just described.

Doesn't the bible describe hell as a "fire and brimstone" type place? If so, why not believe it?

Post by Atik

All I'm saying is that no matter how absolutely great someplace is, I still wouldn't want to be there forever.

It's just not my taste. I would prefer to fade away and finally shut my story.

Post by MyTie

(as far as I've ever understood) you sit aroud and do effectively nothing.

Interesting take on heaven. One, I've not heard before. If I were king of India, I'd have a lot of time to take in the sights and sounds. I'd have food to try, sights to see... mountains, waterfalls, animals. It's a part of the world that has it's own natural beauty. I want to see it before I die. I could spend a few years of my life there, and never take in a fraction of its beauty. Consider the size of that. India. It's huge. However, it's just a small part of the Earth. Earth has many times the beauty of just that small corner. Consider the Earth. Consider how small it is in our galaxy. Consider the sights on all the planets of the galaxy. Consider how much you have to see... Now... consider how many hundreds of millions of galaxies there are... and how many millions of world in each galaxy. How much time would it take for you to enjoy all of that. That took God 5 days. I suspect He could've done it quicker. Do you doubt His ability to entertain your mind? If in 5 days he can create billions of years worth of entertainment for you... billions of years of unique experiences... couldn't he do more? All of the emotions you've felt. Love, happiness, contentment, ecstasy. If He exists, He invented those, and created them, in 5 days. If He exists, boredom isn't something you need to worry about.

Post by Atik

If I were king of India, I'd have a lot of time to take in the sights and sounds. I'd have food to try, sights to see... mountains, waterfalls, animals. It's a part of the world that has it's own natural beauty. I want to see it before I die. I could spend a few years of my life there, and never take in a fraction of its beauty.

And that may be fine to you.

But to me that is nothing. To me that is absolute boredom. To me that sounds like an absolute waste.

When I get the chance, I enjoy sitting back and smelling the roses. But then I'm done, it is a fleeting moment; a second of joy before the boredom sets in. I'm back up, going about what I was doing to begin with.

As I said, the sheer act of existing forever is enough of a torture in itself for heaven and hell to effectively become equal to me. And I wouldn't wish such a fate upon anyone, no matter how much I dislike them.

It holds no appeal to me. It sounds absolutely awful.

Post by Magician22773

Hell, I believe, may or may not be the "fire and brimstone" torture chamber that it is so commonly believed to be. Hell could simply be the eternal seperation from God and Heaven, and all its glory. Basicly, what you just described.

Doesn't the bible describe hell as a "fire and brimstone" type place? If so, why not believe it?

The Bible also calls us all sheep in the Lords flock, and I am not covered in wool.

I also said "may or may not be" in there as well. The Bible uses many metaphors to describe things, in a way that man can understand. The description of hell as fire and brimstone could be literal, or it could be meant as a way to show that it would be a really, really bad place to be for eternity. I personally can't think of a worse place to be for that long a time than seperated from God. If I happened to have the devil poking me in the ass with a spear, that really wouldn't make it any worse.

Post by MyTie

And that may be fine to you.

But to me that is nothing. To me that is absolute boredom. To me that sounds like an absolute waste.

When I get the chance, I enjoy sitting back and smelling the roses. But then I'm done, it is a fleeting moment; a second of joy before the boredom sets in. I'm back up, going about what I was doing to begin with.

As I said, the sheer act of existing forever is enough of a torture in itself for heaven and hell to effectively become equal to me. And I wouldn't wish such a fate upon anyone, no matter how much I dislike them.

It holds no appeal to me. It sounds absolutely awful.

If that is the extent of your appreciation of life, then perhaps eternal life isn't for you. Very unique.

Post by FatalHeaven

Okay, I have a question. This question comes from seeing many posts similar in nature to
If I happened to have the devil poking me in the ass with a spear, that really wouldn't make it any worse.

I don't mean similar to religious questions/answers; rather, in nature to language used. You very adamantly profess the Faith but does God really appreciate the language?

Ephesians 4:29 tells us, "Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen."
First Peter 3:10 declares, "For, whoever would love life and see good days must keep his tongue from evil and his lips from deceitful speech."
James 3:9-12 summarizes the issue: "With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in God's likeness. Out of the same mouth come praise and cursing. My brothers, this should not be. Can both fresh water and salt water flow from the same spring? My brothers, can a fig tree bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water."

How do you feel in relation to being Christian and cursing? I've seen it many times on these forums from self-professed Christians. Is it habit? Do you try not to? Do you just not care? I know I have cursed and can bet I will in the future purely out of habit; but that embarrasses me when it happens. I just have a hard time relating someone as a Christian and then seeing talk like that from them.

Disclaimer: This is not meant as an attack on Magician or anyone else. I used his post only as an example.

Post by Sas148

If that is the extent of your appreciation of life, then perhaps eternal life isn't for you. Very unique.

I'm not sure I find it that unique. I think I can relate actually, to some degree. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to die... I don't want to simply not exist. The idea of a heaven and God sounds wonderful. I just can't bring myself to believe what I feel is a very well thought out extended fantasy. If God wants me to believe in him, then by all means God prove to me you are there and you will have my faith. Until then, I choose to live my life as if I don't have a secondary eternity to live (be it in heaven or hell). I live my life to the fullest I can. I wish to leave something behind for my family and others for generations to come. I act morally and respectfully of others even when they don't always return that practice.

But back to the original point. I can see living for eternity as something to not look forward too. I've known a few elderly individuals who didn't believe in God who were looking forward to an eternal rest. A closing of their lives to make way for others. They were peaceful and content with their lives and ready to be complete; to finish the circle. I will always respect them for that and hope I'll have similar feelings when that day comes.

Post by Squishalot

If that is the extent of your appreciation of life, then perhaps eternal life isn't for you. Very unique.

I don't think it's that unique. The mindset of instant gratification is more pronounced these days than it was in the past, which may in turn be what's leading to an exodus of sorts away from religion.

The Bible uses many metaphors to describe things, in a way that man can understand.

That's something I always used to hound HSR about - where the Catholic Church (or any other Christian religion, really) draws the line between the literal and metaphor. Catholics, for example, believe that when Jesus says "this is my flesh", it really is his flesh, and that through some miracle of holiness, the bread is transubstantiated into His flesh. Yet, there are also sections where Jesus is taken metaphorically, on the understanding that the intent of his message is metaphorical in nature. There's a lot of study involved to really understand which bits are literal, and which bits are metaphorical.(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##Squishalot##DELIM##

Post by Sas148

I don't mean similar to religious questions/answers; rather, in nature to language used. You very adamantly profess the Faith but does God really appreciate the language?

The response to this I've often heard is something along the lines of: "It's not something I'm proud of, and I know it's frowned upon in the Bible, but none of us are perfect and we all sin."

Some people seem to stand by the Bible in many areas yet violate others and just call it sin. Sin that will be forgiven if forgiveness is asked for. There are even people out there that knowingly sin and just confess it each week or month and feel absolved of it just to go do it all again. Not sure I understand the connotations of that but still.

That just brought me to something else... presuming God does exist and will judge us in the end, why do people currently living presume to tell others that don't actively believe in God that they will go to hell. How is it that they know for sure God won't simply look at their entire lives, and how they lived, to determine their fates? Perhaps not believing in him or not "knowing" him wasn't their fault but they lived their lives respectfully, who is to know how he'll respond to that?

I don't refuse to believe God exists, I don't completely dismiss the concept. I just don't actively walk around praying to him or praising him. I just hope that if he does exist, that when I die, he will see how I lived and how I felt and make a fair decision.

I'm hoping that all came out right and made sense.

Post by FatalHeaven

How is it that they know for sure God won't simply look at their entire lives, and how they lived, to determine their fates? Perhaps not believing in him or not "knowing" him wasn't their fault but they lived their lives respectfully, who is to know how he'll respond to that?

They don't. They are judging you, but their judgment has nothing to do with you getting into Heaven. The only judgement that matters is Jesus Christs. As I said before and to reiterate my point:
Therefor, I choose to love a God who loves me but hates my sin. He is in my heart, he knows my truth, and it is he who will judge me; noone else.

Post by asakawa

You have to accept God and ask for forgiveness.
For what must one ask forgiveness?

If you believe as Christians do, and I know that you don't but I'm using that standpoint to explain myself from; but assuming one does, you are asking forgiveness for your past transgressions, sins you've commited, etc. Ever since Eve ate that apple and was cast out of the Garden of Eden with Adam, humans were sinners. She broke Gods rule and we are her decendants. It may seem drastic to you or to other non believers but to Christians it is what it is. Heaven is sinless and Heaven is our goal. So if you don't ask forgiveness you will never make it there. I could say so much more but I really don't want to preach about it.

The short answer is, I'm a sinner. Sinners need to ask forgiveness. The end.

Thanks for the answer. The reason I asked is that I was curious whether it was for things you had done or for more metaphysical transgressions (Original Sin and so on).

In a similar way to other things I've said in this thread I feel like people often ask forgiveness of their god when there's humans that deserve that request. There's a Jewish holiday called "Yom Kippur" in which they ask forgiveness of friends and family and this is considered something they must do before they can ask forgiveness of Yahweh. I may be making a horrible mess of things there as I'm really quite ignorant of the faith generally but I like the idea of recognising the human-level stuff too since, obviously, that's all that's important to me.

Post by Adamsm

You know, I'm reminded of a conversation between two characters in one of my many book series; the one is a very well traveled and lively mage talking to a priest of a religion from a country that is very mountainous and has very horrible weather at time. The mage, finding out that the Heaven/Eternal Paradise of that religion is a large sunny field with near perfect weather says he thinks he'd be rather bored going there after he died. The Priest merely replies, for the poor shepherds who started the religion, being forced to look after their flocks day and night in all kinds of weather, they'd enjoy a lifetime of peace after they are gone.

As for Heaven and Hell; when it comes to the Christian/Catholic versions, I don't believe in them, and I truly doubt I'd end up there. For myself, I'm a firm believer in the cycle of reincarnation, but it's entirely possible you are a given a choice when you die; come back right away or wait a while. If their is a 'waiting room', I'm guessing it's a very nice and comfortable place to recover from your previous life before you decide to get back on the Wheel and take a spin for your new life.

Post by asakawa

As for Heaven and Hell; when it comes to the Christian/Catholic versions, I don't believe in them, and I truly doubt I'd end up there. For myself, I'm a firm believer in the cycle of reincarnation, but it's entirely possible you are a given a choice when you die; come back right away or wait a while. If their is a 'waiting room', I'm guessing it's a very nice and comfortable place to recover from your previous life before you decide to get back on the Wheel and take a spin for your new life.

But what reason is there to believe such a thing other than it being quite a nice idea?

People say things (and I think you've said similar) like that a specific religion fills a space or a gap in their life/heart etc.
I don't understand that. Do I not have the gap? Do I have it but am insensitive to it?
Is the fact that something "feels right" or seems to perfectly fit the space you had before enough to go all in (to continue the overuse of poker phrases in modern parlance - sorry)? Does there not need to be external evidence outside of one's own mind?

I had a post reported for asking questions but please understand that I'm intensely curious and don't mean to offend or demean by asking questions.

Post by Adamsm

But what reason is there to believe such a thing other than it being quite a nice idea?

People say things (and I think you've said similar) like that a specific religion fills a space or a gap in their life/heart etc.
I don't understand that. Do I not have the gap? Do I have it but am insensitive to it?
Is the fact that something "feels right" or seems to perfectly fit the space you had before enough to go all in (to continue the overuse of poker phrases in modern parlance - sorry)? Does there not need to be external evidence outside of one's own mind?

I had a post reported for asking questions but please understand that I'm intensely curious and don't mean to offend or demean by asking questions.

The reason for me at least, is just that it's part of my faith; I truly have no idea if I'm coming back or not, that when I die my shell just degrades in a grave while my soul/spirit whatever you want to call it is added into the rest of the entropy of the universe....but really, I don't mind: For me, what I believe is enough.

As for your own personal feelings: No, there is nothing wrong with you that you don't have it. It's just how you are and what you are. Yes, for myself, finding Wicca was like finally finding a puzzle piece that had been missing for years(just like finding my current girlfriend was another piece of the puzzle that had been missing) which will go on to eventually form the whole picture of 'Me'. For Faith, that's really all that 'should' be important to the person when it comes to things like this; that there is that faith in the One of the religion, that there is the belief that as long as the tenants are followed things will be good, and that it's there for you.

As for the person who reported you for asking a question: That's idiotic lol; really, it is.

Post by Sas148

I have absolutely no objection to people practicing their own religions. What upsets me is when those religious beliefs impact my life. Religion, in my opinion, should be personal and maybe even private (that's not to say I can't see it or that churches should be inconspicuous or something). What I find more frustrating than anything about a lot of religions is the impact they have on the rules of a society. I don't have to be a part of their religion but by golly I better live my life as if I was. It's just frustrating.

Post by Adamsm

What I find more frustrating than anything about a lot of religions is the impact they have on the rules of a society. I don't have to be a part of their religion but by golly I better live my life as if I was. It's just frustrating.

Heh, that's problem with living in countries that were started by a group fleeing religious persecution...or at least, that's what they'd like you to think lol. But really, there does need to be a lot more separation between religions and government; or at least, have the laws made by people who can divide their religious life from their professional one.

Religion

Post Reply