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Another "WoW-Killer" goes FTP
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Post by
Rankkor
The pvp is also more balanced on an individual basis than wows. With wow the balance goes on kind of a rock paper scissors system, like A can beat B but loses to C, which loses to B. Its kind of Blizzard embracing its RTS roots, it makes BGs and arenas balanced, but individual pvp falls short. GW2 on the other hand has a more balanced individual pvp, its based on more reactionary skill than strategy.
Well, I can't comment on it because I haven't played it, and I'm not really very fond of pvp in general (Unless is Lineage 2's pvp, that game just has the best pvp system ever. Period)
Class balance is just an issue on every game, and no matter how hard the developers try, someone will always perceive X being stronger than Y. Not to mention the more "creative" folks that manage to make that meager useless spell suddenly be a total killer.
One thing I do find attractive about GW2's pvp is its WvWvW. (World vs World vs World)
Imagine Wintergrasp (And I use wintergrasp as an example because unlike Tol Barad, WG was actually fun)
Except instead of being alliance vs horde, its server A vs Server B vs Server C. Instead of being 2 sides, its 3 gigantic city-fortress, one assigned to each server, and the 3 duke it out in an all-for-all battle of dominance that can last for DAYS (people just come and go as they please) evoking the feeling of the AV battles of yore. This massive slaughter-fest happens on a 2-week cycle, and servers who get the upper-hand gain a server-wide buff that makes its players stronger on PVE as well as other goodies (Extra loot per mob, more resource nodes, faster player movement, ect)
Dunno about you, but that sounds UNBELIEVABLY FUN. And don't think it will cause lag, because Lineage 2 has a similar system (with its castle sieges and territory wars) and I was able to play smoothly on it. Its all about how they handle it. IF they know what they're doing, this is gonna run peachy, rather than the clusterf**k that was Illum on SWTOR.
I dont have much faith in the pve system though. I get that going outside the whole Tank, Heal, DPS system is a breath of fresh air to some people, but IMO these systems are in place because they work, so Im not so sure how well GW2s is going to go long term.
Well, as I've been saying, this isn't a new game, its a sequel, GW1 also eschewed the tank/healer/dps trinity, and didn't found any problems, its a very successful game on its own (of course it wasn't a wowkiller, but the game did found its own measure of success)
Also while I like the faction based system in wow, Im glad GW2 wont use that. Especially after it became such a big problem in SWTOR where waaay too many people went Sith and so many servers were unbalanced.
Amen. I just don't like faction systems, it causes population-distribution issues, and then there's the fan-zealotry regarding their factions (there's been real-life FIGHTS over fans bickering about who's morally superior, horde or alliance. That's just sad). I very much prefer a game where everyone is on equal footing, where there are not factions and thus nobody can claim "X is holier than Y" or "Y is cooler than X"
That pointless drama is not needed.
GW2's approach is interesting, because rather than choosing a faction, you choose a server, and its server vs server battles as opposed to faction-vs-faction warfare.
You can't deny its an interesting concept. (and no, you can't make alts on multiple servers, once you create your account you have to choose a server, and stick with it, all toons in your account permanently bound there. You can transfer but it will cost you and it comes with a cooldown, a big one)
Hahaha whats really gonna be embaressing is when GW2 gets flattened by a bunch of Pandas...
lol no.
Heh we'll see. But I heard that same thing about SWTOR. Star Wars has a larger fanbase, theyll all migrate to SWTOR, etc etc. Nothing changes, its going to wind up in the same hole as all the others.
They're not trying to beat wow, they're just trying to be their own good game.
Humm, yes and no.
On the one hand, they're neither hyping themselves up as a wowkiller (something that Aion, SWTOR; Rift, and countless others have done) nor are they aiming at bleeding subs from wow. HOWEVER, they are an MMO, which means whether they like it or not, they WILL be competing against wow for subscribers.
If you make your own brand of cars, and claim you are not trying to beat Ford, Ferrari, Chevrolet, Porsche, Mitsubishi, ect, it still doesn't change the fact that your product will be competing with them.
Thats not really how the game market works. I mean Halo and Battlefield might not be trying to "beat" Call of Duty, but they still compete for the same market. Same with GW2, it might be to a lesser extent as other MMOs since it wont be charging a monthly fee, but MMOs suck up a lot of time, and
one usually winds up dominating the market. And thats World of Warcraft
.
Again, I'm not arguing that, wow isn't going anywhere, no matter how shiny a new game may be, wow is the king of MMOs and the sooner "some" people get that through their heads, the sooner they can enjoy other games that aren't wow without whining that X didn't killed wow (SWTOR is a fun game on its own, perhaps far from perfection, but certainly not frustrating or boring, I've played FAR WORSE *coughrunesofmagiccough*)
However your claims that GW2 will "Go belly up" are unfounded, because just as wow had a large number of players that migrated from Warcraft 3 to wow, GW2 has a LOT of players from GW1 that will be migrating to the sequel. The game will be successful. Period. Enough to tropple wow from its number 1 seat? not a chance in hell (its not the game's fault, wow is simply an established franchise, those don't just roll over and die) but it wont be a commercial failure either.
Jeez Ive literally had this same exact conversation with people about Conan, Aeion, Rift, and SWTOR. Every time somebody
swears
that something is gonna make this new game different, but it never does. Whats really sad is when Elder Scrolls online comes out, Im gonna be one of those poor bastards swearing to everybody that its going to dethrone wow...
Ejem, Rift hasn't been a commercial failure, its still going strong. As for Conan and SWTOR, their mistake number 1 was a mix of hyping themselves as the fabled wow-killer, and 2 being too similar to wow.
SWTOR has a very strong sense of "Deja Vu" to wow when you're playing it (it even uses the EXACT same system of classification for its item, white, green, blue, purple) as did Conan.
And BTW; Elder Scrolls Online wont dethrone wow =P
I don't doubt its gonna be a successful game (Because again, it has a strong fanbase from previous elder scroll games) but NOBODY is gonna dethrone wow. Wow will either die by itself, or its creators will pull the plug when they decided the game gave all it had to give (I don't see wow making it past 2 more expansions, it will either be closed, or they'll make "Wow 2")
Post by
gnomerdon
i came from guild wars, and i know for a fact GW2 will not beat wow.
Post by
MyTie
People take this stuff so personally. Wow vs X. When someone thinks X will win, and then X doesn't win, there is always this big backlash "I told you WoW was the best" mentality. I have no idea why. It's a game.
Post by
OverZealous
People take this stuff so personally. Wow vs X. When someone thinks X will win, and then X doesn't win, there is always this big backlash "I told you WoW was the best" mentality. I have no idea why. It's a game.
I agree. It's not that the SW:TOR devs said that their game would "beat" WoW, either. If the devs had said something like that, I would have understood the smugness, but they didn't - what's to be so happy about, really?
Post by
Adamsm
People need to feel superior.
Post by
331902
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MyTie
That's so sad to me, on so many different levels.
Post by
Rankkor
People take this stuff so personally. Wow vs X. When someone thinks X will win, and then X doesn't win, there is always this big backlash "I told you WoW was the best" mentality. I have no idea why. It's a game.
Well the best comparison I can find is the same way people defend their religion / God from others who dare to question it's validity.
A game like WoW represents a great deal of time and money invested and people do have strong feelings about the game.
So in the same way as people leap to defend The Bible, gamers defend their chosen game/s and should God pop his head around a cloud one day and say "sup my hominids?" I'm sure many religious people will show the same kind of "Ha! told you so!" attitude.
It's not exactly a new phenomenon.
Substitute WoW with:- Religion, Pepsi, Ferrari.. on and on.
Humm............ not quite. Your example feels a little off.
To me, this fanatism is more similar to Sports zeal than religous. Because people tend to let it slide (most of the time) when your religion is ridiculed, but say something against the favorite sports team of someone and watch the rage go high.
Post by
MyTie
It depends on the religion. Recently, insulting Islam creates riots... and... wait a second... no no no. This isn't the religion thread.
Post by
Rankkor
It depends on the religion. Recently, insulting Islam creates riots... and... wait a second... no no no. This isn't the religion thread.
ya but with the islam thingie, it creates actual violence. This "who's game will take out wow" just incites internet trolling.
Again, the exact same thing as with sports. It incites hostile comments, and little more than that and rubbing faces when X team fails to defeat Y. Also, games just like sports, compete for the position of champion.
Religions aren't competing among themselves for a championship, and most religions (there are exceptions) actually preach of tolerance against non-believers.
Sports rivalry openly encourages berating fans of the opposite team.
Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MyTie
When someone insults/questions WoW, there is a reaction that some people who really like the game have. It's strong, and personal, and unnecessary. I want to understand why people have that reaction. Comparing it to the reaction people have when sports fans react does no good, because I don't understand that reaction either. Comparing it to the reaction people have when religion is insulted does no good, because I don't see the comparison.
Post by
Adamsm
Then lets go to the most simple thing MyTie: My kid is better then your kid.
Post by
Rankkor
Do you know anything about the game though? You should probably research it more before you compare it to the previous MMOs
As a matter of fact I did an extensive research on it, and found that GW1 has a pretty solid fan base (that along ensures a solid population on the sequel) and found some of its features to be attractive (such as the server vs server fights, skills depending on weapon equipped, all classes being able to be melee or ranged, good looking graphics and art style, interesting backstory (seriously, the lore of many MMOs like rift or tera are SNOOZE-fests) EXP and LooT being shared between everyone who participates on a kill, with everyone getting the same, so you are actually happy to see other players rather than sad)
Other features I found intriguing but not entirely convinced yet (would have to see them in action before I give a final saying). These would be stuff like the Dynamic Events, the lack of trinity for content, lack of raids, lack of gear treadmill (Dungeons only provide cosmetic rewards, actual gear with stats is apparently obtained automatically as you complete your quests and Dynamic Events) separate paths for PVP and PVE (if you want to PVP, you are automatically lvl 80 and with all your skills and a full set of pvp gear, leveling and gearing up is just for PVE, PVP is like a separate game). My coin is still up in the air about those features.
Others I just found flat out bad: Buffs only last a few seconds and need to be constantly maintained, asides from doing your job as DPS, Ditto for debuffs, World PvP within your own realm is non-existent, no mounts, be them ground or aerial, the world seems small, you are downscaled when you are in areas of lower level, so you don't actually get to solo old content, or feel like you've gotten stronger, ect.
Overall I find the game a balanced package, with stuff I like, stuff I dislike, and stuff I'm still on the fence about (Sorta like them, but am not 100% convinced it will work out)
and rift, as rankorr pointed out, is still going strong.
^
And this was a game that actually had "You are not in Azeroth anymore" as a tag line for their advertisements. And yet it hasn't gone "belly up"
Post by
MyTie
My kid is better then your kid.
I don't understand
ANGER
when faced with other people's opinions. Further, I fully expect you would think your kid was better than my kid, as he/she is
your
kid. I'd be worried if you thought my kid was better than your kid, as that isn't a natural parental feeling.
Post by
ElhonnaDS
I like Rift a lot, actually. It's a good game. It's just not SOOOOOO much better than wow that it's worth me restarting my MMO "career." Everquest 2 also was a lot of fun for me, and I liked playing it. SWTOR was also a great deal of fun.
The reasons I keep going back to wow are:
1) I'm already good at it- no learning curve.
2) I know people who play, and so it's easier to find people to do stuff with. Also, I haven't found guilds in other games that use vent socially like the ones I have joined in Wow, so being able to talk to people while playing is a huge plus for me.
3) I already have all the stuff- lol. It took quite a while, after starting in late BC, to go back and get all the pets, and mounts, and vanity items, and (more recently) transmog. Any other game I'm starting from ground zero.
If all of these games launched at the same time, or I was introduced to them at the same time, I could have ended up playing any one of them the same way I play wow. (Except maybe SWTOR- the voiced questing made having vent conversations impossible). Wow just has the advantage of having been the first game to do it well enough to grab a large market share, and now games are fighting not only the game itself but the inclination to stay with what we know/have spent time on.
I think as a game, I enjoyed SWTOR more. Like I enjoyed all the Dragon Age and Mass Effect games, Skyrim, and expect to enjoy Fallout 3 and NV more. I just can't play a game by myself for that many hours without getting bored. But with a vent full of Chatty Cathy's like myself, I don't get bored with the game nearly as fast.
@MyTie- sometimes, it's not the opinion itself but the way in which the opinion is phrased that generates the anger. "I don't really enjoy that game- I didn't like the graphics and I got bored questing," is different than "You play that? Wow, you really will suck down any piece of filth Blizzard makes, won't you."
Post by
Adamsm
/sigh
Are you actively trying to learn something here MyTie, or are you just having fun trolling people? Because honestly, I can't believe you don't understand brand pride.....(##RESPBREAK##)136##DELIM##hatman555##DELIM##Small edit here. Try not to weave an insulting phrase into your line of questioning.
Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MyTie
@MyTie- sometimes, it's not the opinion itself but the way in which the opinion is phrased that generates the anger. "I don't really enjoy that game- I didn't like the graphics and I got bored questing," is different than "You play that? Wow, you really will suck down any piece of filth Blizzard makes, won't you."
I mean, I can understand that. But, maybe I've missed what the "original" insult here was. I just heard that SWTOR was going to be a "WoW killer", and that was what caused this reaction.
In fact, I've seen similar reactions to every failed MMO, or MMO not as successful as WoW.
Post by
ElhonnaDS
I liked the setting of Rift a lot- I liked the two opposing factions, where they (in my opinion) didn't make either feel like the "bad guy," just completely at odds with each other about how to save their world. I liked the aesthetic of it, I liked the races. Gameplay was nearly identical to Wow, from what I remember, so it didn't stand out to me in that way. I really, really liked the constant threat of zone invasions that people needed to deal with in the rifts.
@MyTie- I was speaking more generally. I haven't read through this whole thread, because I was afraid people were engaging in chest thumping, as is wont to happen. I just dropped in to put in my two cents about why I liked it, and why I think it didn't have the same appeal as WoW. I, In general, see a lot of nasty remarks fly about game loyalty. Whenever there's a dip in WoW subs, some people nearly pitch a tent about being able to run to the computer and wave it in front of people's faces. Whenever a new game comes out, some people aren't content to just talk about why they like it, but have to use it as a banner of the end times of games they don't like. Whenever a new game doesn't do as well as Wow, people feel the need to gloat as though someone's personal enjoyment of the game should be somehow ruined by the fact that others didn't enjoy it. I think one person told me, verbatim, that if all I was looking for was a game I enjoyed and had fun with, I was a fail.
I make fun of the fact that people need to get so territorial about it. They get real glee from watching other games fail, and get really enraged when people don't like their game, or disagree with them about games they don't like. It's comical, and a little sad. In the end, you either like the game and play it, or you dislike it and you don't. Your opinion isn't going to retroactively make someone else stop liking a game they enjoy. Someone not liking your game =/= them insulting your mother's integrity. People need to lighten up.
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