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DD (Daily Debate) 60 - Batman vs Iron man
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Post by
331902
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Post by
ElhonnaDS
Boron- how would they have tried to take it over, without an army? We're not talking about a country, here- we're talking about a religion spread across most countries, and not forming the majority in any of them. All other questions aside, how would they have even begun to accomplish it without being supported by actual governments?
What the Diaspora accomplished was to spread the Jewish population so thin that they didn't really have a means of organizing a military force. That was the point. That's what the Romans wanted, because whenever they had a military force, they went to war over Judea. Your question seems to imply just a total lack of understanding of what the situation of the Jewish people was before they had their own country, and what it takes to "take something over."
An equivalent complaint would be complaining that the Native Americans who have been getting back lands that were given to them in old treaties and were illegally seized by the government and resold should have taken the lands over if they thought they were entitled to the. It doesn't at all take into account the non-existent military strength, number or dispersion of the Native American people who were living in the US during the last 100 years.
Most ethnic groups don't have separate military forces within their country, and they certainly don't all know each other, or have some kind of network where they as a culture can all "go to war" with someone else. It doesn't mean that they don't care about injustices against them in the past (real or perceived), or that they don't want back things they feel were taken from them. It just means that you need more than a good arguing point to take over another country.
To accomplish it they'd have had to first found some way to unify across however many countries, with different languages, and no actual national ties, and then gone to war with the British Empire, or before that with an indigenous population that had stood up to the combined might of the European Crusades for a very long time, and before that the various Empires that controlled it.
Post by
557473
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Post by
331902
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
331902
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
557473
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
ElhonnaDS
@ Boron
1) Nonsense. Utter and complete nonsense.
2) They were given the land by the people in control of the country at the time. The British had already taken over the country by military force because it was a colony. It was already under their military control when they created Israel.
3) Ignoring how insensitive and obnoxious this statement was in the way it was presented, you'll notice that the groups are fighting for independence IN THE PLACES THEY ALREADY LIVE. And they're not winning.
If you are suggesting that since many civilians do business together globally with other people of their religion, they could somehow have mobilized everyone they went to temple with to agree to fly to some central location to train a military force unnoticed, and bought military grade weapons and vehicles that were illegal for civilians to own, and then somehow transport all of that to the Middle East and take on the British Military for control of their colony, you are so out of touch with reality that there is no way to even keep discussing this. And if you're talking about earlier than that, you're talking about a period where the type of communications technology needed to organize things in many countries at once didn't really exist.
Post by
557473
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Post by
ElhonnaDS
So you mean after the vast majority of them were killed, sold into slavery or sent all over the globe because they didn't as a unified country have the military might to beat a full-on empire, you think that the surviving remnants should have found a way to get back together and actually defeat a full-on empire? Also, you're talking about a period of time where people are all born, live and die in the same village or city, with very few exceptions. How, pray tell, does someone with no knowledge of the rest of the world send messages out to "all the Jews" if they don't even know where they live, who they are or how many people they should be looking for?
You're right- organized empires had messaging systems...because they already knew where to find all their appointed officials and military units because the central government is who sent them wherever they are in the first place.
What you're suggesting is that people who for the most part likely didn't know how to read should have found some way to write and send messages to all the people of their religion across the continent, despite not knowing who or where they were, and then somehow marched them all unseen to a location to train them as an army without arousing the suspicions of the empire they're practicing to fight, and then succeeded where their ancestors as an organized country had failed in overturning an empire?
Post by
557473
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Post by
ElhonnaDS
Ok...so your suggestion is that they hire messengers to go out and look for Jewish people all over the place (because they don't know where many of them are specifically, so they'd kind of have to go door to door- or at least temple to temple), and convince them that they should trust someone they've never met who wants to lead an ethnic revolt against the empire they live in. And in the process not get caught or overheard by any officials who would clamp down on it.
The way you keep saying "they" is silly- like it's some cohesive group that was always in full communication because they share a heritage. Your treatment of everyone of that heritage as a single cohesive entity is staggeringly inaccurate, and is leading you to all sorts of ridiculous assumptions. The vast majority of people in those time periods maybe met 100 people in their lifetime if they weren't in a major city. If you only knew 100 people, and 20 were Jewish, how would you know how to find people in other towns and countries who were also Jewish, when you're not even sure what direction to walk in, or what more than a few towns are even called to ask directions. What makes you assume that they'd have some kind of bond where they'd automatically trust some stranger who showed up on their door and said "You're Jewish, right? Come one- we're having a war!"
Do me a favor- try and get "all the white people" or "all the Italians" together sometime, and see how that goes.
Post by
331902
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Post by
ElhonnaDS
I don't even agree with how they went about forming Israel, or that they had any inherent right to the land. It's just that the glaring ridiculousness of these arguments is staggering.
Post by
557473
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Post by
ElhonnaDS
I'm not playing anymore. You as much as admitted you were just trying to get a rise out of people in the RB.
Post by
557473
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Post by
Skreeran
Another thing to note: Whether or not the way Israel was formed in the 50s was right, most of the people living there now were born there. At this point, its as much their homeland as it is the Palestinians.
Post by
557473
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Post by
Adamsm
Boron, if you want to do the Debate of the Day, I'd suggest posting topics that have actual debate clauses, rather then trying to steer them in a direction that will just cause flames.
Post by
557473
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