This site makes extensive use of JavaScript.
Please enable JavaScript in your browser.
Classic Theme
Thottbot Theme
Something I never really thought about until the other day regarding the Alliance
Post Reply
Return to board index
Post by
Skreeran
*shudder* I never really looked to Sylvanas for sex appeal. She is a corpse, you know. I always liked her because her backstory was so tragic, I really sympathized with her anger and pain and despair. I still hope she can be salvaged, but I'm not above killing her if she isn't.
As for Velen vs. Lor'themar, Velen at least had a character prior to Tides of War. Velen is one of the Eredar Triad, which makes him important; he was featured in Rise of the Horde and Unbroken, which exhibited his character; he was featured at the end of TBC, as Rank said; and he will most likely be a big part in the future, if Azeroth can ever stop fighting long enough to put together this Army of Light.
Prior to Tides, Lor'themar's sole purpose for existing was just to say "Your Kael'thas is in another castle." He had bit parts in 3.3 (purifying Quel'danar), and 4.2 (telling Vereesa to GTFO), but neither really explored his character. We had no idea what kind of guy he even was until very recently.
Post by
Adamsm
He's also seen as Garroshe's "Yes man" in tides of war, getting preferential seating and some respect from the warcheif. And infact he's rather cold to slyvannas as a result of having Garrosh to rely on for muscle.
He gets a one-on-one meeting with Warchief Garrosh Hellsqueak and corrects Hellsqueak to the face, getting his particular focus.Say what? There was no focus at all on Sylvanas or Lor'thermor in that book, other then to use them both as living plot items that vanished after being in it for one chapter....and then both of the commanders they sent were killed by Garrosh's secret police; the leader of the Blood Elves isn't a yes man by any stretch....
Post by
Lordplatypus
He's Garroshe's "Yes Man" because he agrees with Garrosh while most leaders don't (Ie. his tactics). And is probably just sucking up to him to be independent from the forsaken. On the other hand even Velen's short story was simply focused around Anduin. Btw, LOL and "Your kael thas is in another castle". However the Blood Elves were obivous more in focus racewise than the Draenei, who's only quest in northerend was about not having other Draenei in northerend, yeah.
Just make the Exodar fly and i'm happy.
Post by
Adamsm
He's Garroshe's "Yes Man" because he agrees with Garrosh while most leaders don't (Ie. his tactics)Yet...none of the leaders at the meeting said no, since they know what would have happened.
And is probably just sucking up to him to be independent from the forsaken. I don't recall him sucking up; I recall him not rising to the obvious bait that was thrown at him to make him say something that would have resulted in his people being punished....and again, after what happened to the Forsaken and Blood Elf commander at the hands of the Blackrock, there is no way in hell that the Blood Elves are ever going to give more then just a token support to Garrosh's regime.
Post by
Rankkor
I wonder if slyvannas would be so popular if she wasn't a sex icon.
He's had way more than Lor'themar could ever hope for, including a unique model.
Lor'Themar has a unique model, it's slightly bulkier looking than your average Blood Elf
Unique my foot. His model is 100% identical to every other male blood elf, except taller. Same deal with most faction leaders like Gelbin, Jastor, Baine, Vol'jin, Muradin, Moira, Greymane, ect.
So far the only main leaders with a UNIQUE (as in, UNIQUE, not slightly taller) model are Varian, Jaina, Tyrande, Malfurion, Velen, Thrall, Garrosh, and Sylvannas. The others have just the same model as everyone else.
He's also seen as Garroshe's "Yes man" in tides of war, getting preferential seating and some respect from the warcheif. And infact he's rather cold to slyvannas as a result of having Garrosh to rely on for muscle.
He gets a one-on-one meeting with Warchief Garrosh Hellsqueak and corrects Hellsqueak to the face, getting his particular focus.
All of that was just 1 book, he's been more or less ignored EVER SINCE HE SHOWED UP. Unlike Velen who's had plenty of times on the spot light. Who cares if most of them were in TBC? he's had involvement with the plot. Lor'themar? other than being a yesman on 1 book, what else has he gotten? go on, tell me. Enlighten me.
Hell, anyone reading your little comment there would had believed that Lor'themar had a protagonic role on Tides of War, or that at least his actions carried SOME weight in the plot of the book, but the grim reality is that he showed up for about 4 or 6 pages at most.
I wonder if slyvannas would be so popular if she wasn't a sex icon.
She's never been seen as a sex icon, not even with the skimpy model. The main reason I used to like her was due to her backstory, as a figure who was killed as a hero, then had a horrible fate forced upon her, yet she still managed to carve a destiny for herself.
She more or less doomed herself in my eyes as of cataclysm, when she began to use chemical weapons (Something I could had forgiven) AND most importantly, use Val'kirs to force undeath onto others.
After cataclyms, I just want her gone, and I'm one of the most hardcore horde fans on this site.
He's Garroshe's "Yes Man" because he agrees with Garrosh while most leaders don't (Ie. his tactics). And is probably just sucking up to him to be independent from the forsaken.
That still doesn't changes the fact that his role in the book is of cameo at best, he shows up for at best 6 pages and is never heard of again. Whereas Velen has shown up in several books, having important roles in all of them.
However the Blood Elves were obivous more in focus racewise than the Draenei, who's only quest in northerend was about not having other Draenei in northerend, yeah.
Way to change the topic, we're not talking about races, we're talking about LEADERS. Velen has had a lot more protagonism than Lor'themar would ever dream of, even if the blood elves have gotten a bit more love than the draenei (and I say a bit because compared to the other races, they're still waaaay behind)
As far as involvement with the actual plot of the game, Lor'themar is by far and wide the most neglected leader in the entire game. Even Gelbin of all people has had more involvement than him. And that's just sad when a gnome who has done almost nothing has more notoriety than the Blood Elf leader.
Edit 3: I take that back, I suppose there is one leader who's had even more neglectment, Jastor Galliwyx. At least Lor'themar exists. Galliwyx more or less vanishes from the face of azeroth after you finish the goblin starting zone. And other than a very small cameo on Tides of War he's also never heard from again.
Post by
Adamsm
Easiest way to see that Lor'themar's not a unique model is the fact that he has both eyes.
Post by
Rankkor
Easiest way to see that Lor'themar's not a unique model is the fact that he has both eyes.
and that all of his gear can be easily obtained in the game. If you take the time and dedication to grind a blood elf paladin to 80, farm sunwell, and do the argent tournament for a couple of weeks, you can easily become a 100% identical clone of Lor'themar if you chose the correct options in the character creator.
Try to pull that off with Varian.
Or any of the other leaders who actually have a unique model. (Which I must add are far more prevalent in the alliance. Only 3 horde major figures have unique models (Thrall, Garrosh, and Sylvannas), vs the 6 in the alliance (Jaina, Varian, Tyrande, Malfurion, Velen, and Anduin)
At least Vol'jin is getting a new model on 5.1 (which supports the new fan theory of him being the next warchief. I have mixed feelings about that, I'm still hoping its Thrall who comes back)
Post by
Adamsm
The gear doesn't matter that much; after all, except for the Doomhammer, it was possible to pull off a Thrall look a like costume in Vanilla....till he got the robes at least.
But until he loses his eye, he'll always have a non-unique model.
Post by
Rankkor
The gear doesn't matter that much; after all, except for the Doomhammer, it was possible to pull off a Thrall look a like costume in Vanilla....till he got the robes at least.
But until he loses his eye, he'll always have a non-unique model.
I know, I'm just saying that his model is as non-unique as it could be, both in appearance and gear.
Back before Magni was killed, his gear was unique, but his model was that of a common dwarf. So he was half-half unique.
Varian on the other hand, his model is unique, and so are his weapon and armor.
Edit: its a little ironic that Lor'themar's Honor Guard has a more unique model than him. Both in appearance AND gear (what I'd give to have that sword and shield)
Post by
Behelich
The gear doesn't matter that much; after all, except for the Doomhammer, it was possible to pull off a Thrall look a like costume in Vanilla....till he got the robes at least.
But until he loses his eye, he'll always have a non-unique model.
I know, I'm just saying that his model is as non-unique as it could be, both in appearance and gear.
Back before Magni was killed, his gear was unique, but his model was that of a common dwarf. So he was half-half unique.
Varian on the other hand, his model is unique, and so are his weapon and armor.
Edit: its a little ironic that Lor'themar's Honor Guard has a more unique model than him. Both in appearance AND gear (what I'd give to have that sword and shield)
Magni had simple warrior Ulduar tier armor (plus simple circlet and ironforge tabard), rank. As for Lor'themar, excluding the shoulders his suit is an unobtainable red/gold recolor of a rogue Black Temple/Hyjal tier armor, while the shoulders are mage Sunwell tier-esque armor - plus a
unique black turtleneck
. And don't get me started on his awesome one-handed two-hander.
So yeah, any warrior could mimic Magni. No one - and I mean absolutely no one - can mimic Lor'themar.
Post by
Lordplatypus
His honor guard was what the orignal Belf model was, it was too "Wimpy" so blizz added mass to it. And ofcourse there was next to zero creativity in the gear the guards are using, it's just taking the WCIII Blood elven Spellbreaker and modeling it into WoW.
And on the subject of slyvannas, if they wanted someone to redeem, it was
Arthas
not that backstabbing hypocritical jackass. Arthas was always more or less a "Batman" Anti hero in that he'll manipulate his own troops to win if nessicary.
Then frostmourne happened. And if you bring up Quel'thalas He didn't have his soul then. And if the orcs get a "Get out of jail free" card for being poessed, but still themselves. Arthas most definitely gets one for having HIS OWN SOUL REMOVED.
I was hoping for arthas to be an "Atoner" and try to rebuild what he was before his fall. That could of been interesting but no, he had to be given the same fate as total evil !@#$s like Illidan and Kael'thas.
Post by
Skreeran
In regards to Arthas, I never really liked him, even before Frostmourne. Something about his attitude, his sense of entitlement, just rubbed me the wrong way. And then his super sarcastic assholishness following Frostmourne didn't make me sympathize with him any more either. I remember I fist wanted to kill him after he snarked to Uther that he didn't plan to die.
Post by
Adamsm
Arthas was always more or less a "Batman" Anti hero in that he'll manipulate his own troops to win if nessicary.Lol; right: Arthas was manipulated from the moment he left Capitol city, to be turned into the 'ultimate' weapon of the Scourge. Arthas was pathetic with daddy issues(had problems with the fact that his father saw Varian as a better choice for a son), had severe commitment phobia(or he had a hump and dump mentality) and then that whole sad Wrath thing where he went from being a vicious and competent threat to a joke.
Arthas had nothing to redeem, which is why I hated that stupid shred of 'good' inside of him that supposedly held back the Scourge /roll eyes
Post by
Rankkor
And on the subject of slyvannas, if they wanted someone to redeem, it was Arthas not that backstabbing hypocritical jackass.
Lol-what?
Dude, in the matter of being a jackass, who is the clear-cut winner? Arthas lied to his men, betrayed the mercenaries that fought for him, purged an entire city full of innocent people instead of considering any second option, and acted like an arrogant pompous ASS during 3/4 of all of warcraft 3
On the matter of Backstabber: Arthas murdered his own father, led an invasion of Quel'thalas, another one in Dalaran, betrayed the mercs that fought for him in icecrown, lied and killed his own expedition just to have a petty revenge.
What exactly did sylvannas did that pissed you off so much BEFORE cata? because I don't really recall her doing anything as monstrous as arthas at any point. She was a hero of quel'thalas who fought tooth and nail to protect her homeland. As a reward she was killed, turned into a monster, shunned by her people, hunted down like a freak, and even then, she rallied all those who had suffered a similar fate to her and gave them shelter, purpose, haven, and protection.
It wasn't until she started using the blight and the valks that she started descending down the path of darkness, but before that point, she was nowhere near close to arthas in terms of sheer nonredeemability.
Even after cata, she still has some sympathetic moments, since she does lets the Gilnean Liberation Force walk away with their lives in silverpine. Something that the alliance WOULD HAD NEVER EVER DONE if they had switched places.
Arthas was always more or less a "Batman" Anti hero in that he'll manipulate his own troops to win if nessicary.
I don't know what warcraft you played, but its obviously not the same warcraft the rest of the world played.
I feel compelled to remind you that batman doesn't kill. Neither the bad guys MUCH LESS the good guys. Arthas was perfectly fine to butcher innocent men and women, as well as his own damned troops to get the job done.
Batman my foot.
And if you bring up Quel'thalas He didn't have his soul then. And if the orcs get a "Get out of jail free" card for being poessed, but still themselves. Arthas most definitely gets one for having HIS OWN SOUL REMOVED.
Now you're talking apples and oranges here. Dude get some research done before you start embarrasing yourself like that.
The orcs were not possessed, they were deceived at first into going to war, then they were coerced into drinking demon blood. Those that refused would suffer the same fate as the frostwolf clan.
That was the first generation, the second generation (all the children that were born after that, and which were the ones who made up teh bulk of the horde in the first and second wars) were just children that were artificially aged by the warlocks, given weapons and armor, given demonic blood, and then tossed into the battle with the most simplistic orders.
These were people who had the freedom of choice removed from them, you either did as the shadow council said, or they killed you. They were also drugged to keep them obedient, and were artificially aged to prevent them from developing their own personality through childhood and adulthood.
The ones who actually willingly committed all of these atrocities (Gul'dan and the shadow council) are DEAD! and the others who participated in the war were either killed in battle, or worse, imprisoned in concentration camps for over 30 years suffering every form of indignity a living being could suffer, from being treated like cattle, to being forced to fight for the amusement of nobles, to being spat on, and verbally assaulted every day of their lives, while wearing rags, and eating dirt.
so yeah "Get out of jail
free
" card BULLSHlT, the orcs dind't just regained their freedom "free" they paid a very VERY heavy price for it, a price they continue to pay to this day.
Arthas on the other hand, was a petulant manchild long before the lich king chose him as his champion, he had self-entitlement issues (thinking that the world should had been served to him in a silver platter) had some severe daddy issues, issues with authority, and of course, the biggest one of all: "My way, or the highway".
Arthas did what he did on Stratholme willingly, he wasn't duped, he wasn't forced, he wasn't hypnotized, or drugged. He did that on his own accord, ditto for lying to his men, and betraying his own mercs. Not to mention about not giving a damn that his own mentor was (apparently) killed.
Post by
Lordplatypus
Dude, in the matter of being a jackass, who is the clear-cut winner? Arthas lied to his men, betrayed the mercenaries that fought for him, purged an entire city full of innocent people instead of considering any second option, and acted like an arrogant pompous ASS during 3/4 of all of warcraft 3
On the matter of Backstabber: Arthas murdered his own father, led an invasion of Quel'thalas, another one in Dalaran, betrayed the mercs that fought for him in icecrown, lied and killed his own expedition just to have a petty revenge.
What exactly did sylvannas did that pissed you off so much BEFORE cata? because I don't really recall her doing anything as monstrous as arthas at any point. She was a hero of quel'thalas who fought tooth and nail to protect her homeland. As a reward she was killed, turned into a monster, shunned by her people, hunted down like a freak, and even then, she rallied all those who had suffered a similar fate to her and gave them shelter, purpose, haven, and protection.
It wasn't until she started using the blight and the valks that she started descending down the path of darkness, but before that point, she was nowhere near close to arthas in terms of sheer nonredeemability.
Even after cata, she still has some sympathetic moments, since she does lets the Gilnean Liberation Force walk away with their lives in silverpine. Something that the alliance WOULD HAD NEVER EVER DONE if they had switched places.
He lied to his men and betrayyed those mercs, all to behead the scourge. potentially the only way to defeat it as we seen in our own trek up northerend. And ofcourse those "innocents"? Wait before killing them 2 seconds in WC3,
THEY TURN INTO ZOMBIES
Arthas was a death knight by the time he killed his father, Quel'Thalas is being blown way overboard, it's a smaller scale and far less than what happened to lordaeron and was done as a souless freaking death knight and you just said the same thing twice.
She was a mindless &*!@# who i just hated from the second i layed eyes on her, from literally taunting a death knight into doing it saying "I deserve a clean death", basically demanding it from someone she just pissed off. Would simply retreating and evacuating not work better? once she became an undead, her morality went zero and she turned into an revenge-obessed %^&* who betrayed Grand marshal garithos and his men. Then, throughout WoW she basically desecrated lordaeron and it was her and her alone that stopped the people of theramoore from coming home and probably caused the entire orc campaign in WC3. The only purpose they had was to die and they were dead, Do they deserve a second life? do they deserve the choice? I'll snowclone raynor here for a minute.
"Your forsaken, your already dead".
Arthas was never under his own control, slyvannas did all those atrocities, Capturing Alliance citizens to use as experiments which screamed evil. Was RESEARCHING A FREAKING BLIGHT. all on her own free will. Arthas on the other hand was still holding back dispite already losing his soul, he still fought against his own corruption.
THAT
takes willpower or did you not take in the lore of WotLK?
Even after cata, she still has some sympathetic moments, since she does lets the Gilnean Liberation Force walk away with their lives in silverpine. Something that the alliance WOULD HAD NEVER EVER DONE if they had switched places.
I'm gonna stop right here and say that
THIS. IS. TOTAL. BULL!@#$.
You are such a blatant horde lover you are absolutely unredeemable and need i say it an insult to every single WoW gamer. Slyvannas was losing throughout silverpine and bought her way out with kidnapping DARIS CROWLEY'S KID. and if that was all i seen of her, that would be enough for me to want to put her through the most horrible things i can imagine. The alliance would have retreated and sent in a superior force, not resort to whats literally so low even hittler didn't think of it.
Post by
Lordplatypus
I feel the need to split this into two replies due to the size
Now you're talking apples and oranges here. Dude get some research done before you start embarrasing yourself like that.
The orcs were not possessed, they were deceived at first into going to war, then they were coerced into drinking demon blood. Those that refused would suffer the same fate as the frostwolf clan.
That was the first generation, the second generation (all the children that were born after that, and which were the ones who made up teh bulk of the horde in the first and second wars) were just children that were artificially aged by the warlocks, given weapons and armor, given demonic blood, and then tossed into the battle with the most simplistic orders.
These were people who had the freedom of choice removed from them, you either did as the shadow council said, or they killed you. They were also drugged to keep them obedient, and were artificially aged to prevent them from developing their own personality through childhood and adulthood.
The ones who actually willingly committed all of these atrocities (Gul'dan and the shadow council) are DEAD! and the others who participated in the war were either killed in battle, or worse, imprisoned in concentration camps for over 30 years suffering every form of indignity a living being could suffer, from being treated like cattle, to being forced to fight for the amusement of nobles, to being spat on, and verbally assaulted every day of their lives, while wearing rags, and eating dirt.
so yeah "Get out of jail free" card BULLSHlT, the orcs dind't just regained their freedom "free" they paid a very VERY heavy price for it, a price they continue to pay to this day.
Arthas on the other hand, was a petulant manchild long before the lich king chose him as his champion, he had self-entitlement issues (thinking that the world should had been served to him in a silver platter) had some severe daddy issues, issues with authority, and of course, the biggest one of all: "My way, or the highway".
Arthas did what he did on Stratholme willingly, he wasn't duped, he wasn't forced, he wasn't hypnotized, or drugged. He did that on his own accord, ditto for lying to his men, and betraying his own mercs. Not to mention about not giving a damn that his own mentor was (apparently) killed.
1: The mercs and men was NESSICARY. Muradin? He didn't have time to grieve, he was at war.
There are casualties
2: DO NOT SAY THE ORCS PAID AT ALL! DID THEY PAY FOR THE FIRST WAR? DID THEY $%^&ING PAY FOR THE SECOND? DID THEY NOT RAZE THE SAME QUEL THALAS YOU LOVE SO MUCH?. The orcs need to be killed, every single one of them, before they can start on the rest of their debts in the afterlife.
3: 2nd generation? 3rd Generation? They had millions of choices more than arthas did.
They still had free will and could surender.
4: The internment camps were an act of mercy. They should have been killed to the last one.
I replied to your arthas-hating long ago. And if a Belf lover like you can't see past Quel'Thalas, i won't care. You just can't see that quel'thalas was doomed long ago when they left the alliance for not sending enough to help them. Including GARITHOS. who btw became racist just for that, he was fighting for the elves in Quel'thalas when his hometown was razed. and then the
ELVES
have the ego to say that it was the
alliance
's fault?
Post by
Adamsm
Arthas was still played like a fiddle by the Scourge and the Dreadlords; every single thing he did he did of his own choice: Even when he killed his father, it wasn't because the Scourge was pulling his strings, it was because he wanted to be King and he 'knew' that he was better then his father.
As for Quel'thalas; he killed their king, wiped out their magical protections, murdered and raised up their greatest general to be his own special puppet to kill and drove that general completely and utterly ape !@#$ insane....yeah, way over blown there /roll eyes
Edit: In other words, everything Sylvanas is now was because of what Arthas did to her.
Post by
Lordplatypus
Oh and the worst of their pains in the interment camps you scream about? That was their own fault.
Who knew demon blood had withdrawal symptoms!
Post by
Lordplatypus
Arthas was still played like a fiddle by the Scourge and the Dreadlords; every single thing he did he did of his own choice: Even when he killed his father, it wasn't because the Scourge was pulling his strings, it was because he wanted to be King and he 'knew' that he was better then his father.
As for Quel'thalas; he killed their king, wiped out their magical protections, murdered and raised up their greatest general to be his own special puppet to kill and drove that general completely and utterly ape !@#$ insane....yeah, way over blown there /roll eyes
Edit: In other words, everything Sylvanas is now was because of what Arthas did to her.
And arthas was a souless husk with all morality manually stripped out by that time.
I used the orcs as the closest thing to what happened to him for comparison, while the orcs were all forgiven, arthas, a man who went out of his way to help people (WC3 First and Second missions). was left to die for not being metzen's favorite race.
Post by
Atik
Except for one thing.
Arthas couldn't have been a soulless husk, because that would mean there was no good left in him.
But at the end of Wrath, we find out Arthas was always there and 'holding back the scourge.'
*Avoids mentioning my blatant Sylvannas fanboyism*
Post Reply
You are not logged in. Please
log in
to post a reply or
register
if you don't already have an account.