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Something I never really thought about until the other day regarding the Alliance
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Post by
morginar
As for the worgen, slyvannas was right there, who knew if the bloodfang and other rebels won't simply rush her and kill her? and you seriously overestimate the forsaken, they are still inferior in almost all phyiscal abilities to any other race.'
You don't kill people in the midle of negotiations, thats just plain dirty and dishonorable, and the power of the undead lies not in brute force but rather in this argument that they need no rest or food. How long can a worgen survive without any rest and limmited food supplies.
Post by
Monday
Second war? Defeat on almost all fronts for the alliance. The only reason the alliance actually won, was because the horde was wracked with inner conflict due to Gul'Dan, who in the critical moment took well over 50% of the horde's forces into the Tomb of Sargeras and got himself and them anihilated. This gave the alliance the boost they so badly needed to deliver the final blow to the horde, and to this day IS THE ONLY REASON THEY BARELY WON.
Actually, if you read the books, the Alliance had been combating the Horde pretty well. The Horde had been almost completely crushed in the Hinterlands and the Alliance had defended several key points. The only reason they almost lost was because the Horde had surprise attacked Capital City. It's true that the Horde had almost won that battle, but Gul'dan's betrayal sealed their fate.
The orcish hordes invasion was an ATTEMPTED legion invasion with the orcs acting as a vanguard, the alliance put a stop to that.
... not really. I didn't see any demons among the army. The orc invasion was there to wipe out humanity so the Legion wouldn't have to get its hands dirty.
3: It's notable that the Alliance, NOT the horde solo'd the legion invasion twice (Once in the first/2nd war and once with the nelfs before then) While the horde didn't do much.
Night elves don't count. During the War of the Ancients, humans, dwarves, gnomes, worgen and draenei all either didn't exist or weren't present on Azeroth. The kaldorei were the dominant power
You might argue that the kaldorei are part of the Alliance now, and, well, that's true. However, their population has shrunk since they were the global superpower, they've lost their immortality and a large portion of the population joined the Horde, (the sin'dorei).
As for the worgen, slyvannas was right there, who knew if the bloodfang and other rebels won't simply rush her and kill her? and you seriously overestimate the forsaken, they are still inferior in almost all phyiscal abilities to any other race.'
The fact that Sylvanas almost singlehandedly killed Arthas makes me think you're overestimating Bloodfang a wee bit.
So, yeah. Reply if you dare. However, I'm fairly sure there's no way to counter these points. And, once again, let me stress that I am an Alliance fan, so it doesn't seem like the Horde fans are ganging up on you. However, your debate methods dirty the name of the Alliance, and I'd rather not be associated with you if you continue to debate the way you have been (*cough*godwin*cough*).
Post by
Behelich
The fact that Sylvanas almost singlehandedly killed Arthas makes me think you're overestimating Bloodfang a wee bit.
Woah-woah-woah, slow down there a bit, Sylvanas a) fired a poisoned arrow tailor-fit to make Arthas die a slow, painful death from an ambush when he was b) already suffering from severe power loss due to the cracks in the Frozen Throne.
And even then, the poison that she thought would kill him just wore off by the time he got to Northrend.
Post by
Monday
The fact that Sylvanas almost singlehandedly killed Arthas makes me think you're overestimating Bloodfang a wee bit.
Woah-woah-woah, slow down there a bit, Sylvanas a) fired a poisoned arrow tailor-fit to make Arthas die a slow, painful death from an ambush when he was b) already suffering from severe power loss due to the cracks in the Frozen Throne.
And even then, the poison that she thought would kill him just wore off by the time he got to Northrend.
True, however, in Halls of Reflection, she dueled the Lich King one on one, and survived.
Post by
Atik
The fact that Sylvanas almost singlehandedly killed Arthas makes me think you're overestimating Bloodfang a wee bit.
Woah-woah-woah, slow down there a bit, Sylvanas a) fired a poisoned arrow tailor-fit to make Arthas die a slow, painful death from an ambush when he was b) already suffering from severe power loss due to the cracks in the Frozen Throne.
And even then, the poison that she thought would kill him just wore off by the time he got to Northrend.
True, however, in Halls of Reflection, she dueled the Lich King one on one, and survived.
Well true, she definately didn't "almost kill him." She did duel him, and was able to hold her own, which is certainly impressive. (Granted, iirc, he might have still been weakened by the Blight at the time. I'm not sure how long that is after Wrathgate, but you don't just sleep off a facefull of that.)
However, Sylvannas held off an entire army of Worgen and Gilneans during the Worgen starting zone while kicking Greymane's ass. AND she would have killed Greymane if Liam hadn't jumped in to take the shot.
With the exception of Godfree's suprise attack (point blank to the back of the head with a shotgun) Sylvannas has proven time and time again you don't want to try 1-on-1-ing her.
Fel, even when she was alive. Try rushing her with just Arthas in Warcraft 3 and watch Arthas get his ass kicked. (Granted, I suck at RTS games and can't micro worth a damn, so hey...)
Post by
Rankkor
Second war? Defeat on almost all fronts for the alliance. The only reason the alliance actually won, was because the horde was wracked with inner conflict due to Gul'Dan, who in the critical moment took well over 50% of the horde's forces into the Tomb of Sargeras and got himself and them anihilated. This gave the alliance the boost they so badly needed to deliver the final blow to the horde, and to this day IS THE ONLY REASON THEY BARELY WON.
Actually, if you read the books, the Alliance had been combating the Horde pretty well. The Horde had been almost completely crushed in the Hinterlands and the Alliance had defended several key points. The only reason they almost lost was because the Horde had surprise attacked Capital City. It's true that the Horde had almost won that battle, but Gul'dan's betrayal sealed their fate.
Actually I did read the books, the alliance did won several battles (Specially that crushing victory on the seas) but they still nearly lost. They suffered heavy losses, and it was Gul'dans betrayal that allowed them to both regroup, and counter-attack.
Had the entire bulk of the horde been present, capital city would had fallen, and the siege of blackrock mountain would had either not happened, or end up in a defeat as well. So Platypus's argument that the alliance "Soloed the legion twice" is laughable at best.
The paving force sent by the legion dealt them a nearly crushing blow the first time, and an even bigger crushier blow the second time (in the third war).
And, once again, let me stress that I am an Alliance fan, so it doesn't seem like the Horde fans are ganging up on you.
Hell, I may as well take this time to highlight that I
DO NOT
Support the current plan of Sylvannas. She used to be one of my favorite characters back in War3, and even early wow, but first her use of the blight (which I could had sorta overlooked if it was the one thing she had done) and more importantly, her use of the valks has vaporized my support for her.
I want her gone, I want the forsaken stopped, spreading undeath is not natural, I don't care if they can't reproduce. While I support the fact that they deserve lordaeron, I can't and won't endorse their plans of converting every human alive into one of them.
Having said that, Sylvannas DID had a sympathetic moment when she let the GLF forces walk away. She had them by the throat, forced them to put down their weapons, and had she been a pragmatic, cunning, merciless woman, she would had then backed out of her deal and finished them off. Instead, she chose to let them walk away with their lives intact, something that VERY VERY FEW people in this game would do. Alliance or Horde.
However, your debate methods dirty the name of the Alliance, and I'd rather not be associated with you if you continue to debate the way you have been
I know man ='( there's some awesome alliance fans in here, but just as "there must always be a lich king", there must always be the one that chooses to act like a fanatic.
Wish I could say that this doesn't happen with horde fans, but we know that's not true, there's black sheeps on the horde as well, though thankfully they rarely show up in wowhead. They're mostly relegated to other forums.
Well true, she definately didn't "almost kill him." She did duel him, and was able to hold her own, which is certainly impressive.
However, Sylvannas held off an entire army of Worgen and Gilneans during the Worgen starting zone while kicking Greymane's ass. AND she would have killed Greymane if Liam hadn't jumped in to take the shot.
With the exception of Godfree's suprise attack (point blank to the back of the head with a shotgun) Sylvannas has proven time and time again you don't want to try 1-on-1-ing her.
Yeah, then there's
THIS
What's that? ohh that's just her, casually taking a stride on her horse, walking across the kingdom, while casually swatting aside all the GLF forces on her way like they're fleas.
There's also her awesome killing streak on Battle for UC, where she not only shoots 50 arrows at the same time (she looks like a machine-gun) but also on the deeper part, jumps on the back of a DOOMGUARD, and with just her daggers, oneshots him, and jumps from doomguard to doomguard mid-air and oneshots them all.
So yeah, not really someone you wanna cross.
I really think its a shame she is so intent on using those damned Valks, she really was among my favorite heroines in the game.
Post by
Monday
While I support the fact that they deserve lordaeron, I can't and won't endorse their plans of converting every human alive into one of them.
Out of curiosity, why do they deserve Lordaeron?
Post by
morginar
While I support the fact that they deserve lordaeron, I can't and won't endorse their plans of converting every human alive into one of them.
Out of curiosity, why do they deserve Lordaeron?
They lived there in life and now in undeath?
I don't support the invasion on hillsbrad and gilneas. The gilneas invasion was garrosh orders right?
Post by
Monday
While I support the fact that they deserve lordaeron, I can't and won't endorse their plans of converting every human alive into one of them.
Out of curiosity, why do they deserve Lordaeron?
They lived there in life and now in undeath?
What about the refugees, the still living humans who also have a claim to Lordaeron?
Post by
Atik
While I support the fact that they deserve lordaeron, I can't and won't endorse their plans of converting every human alive into one of them.
Out of curiosity, why do they deserve Lordaeron?
They lived there in life and now in undeath?
What about the refugees, the still living humans who also have a claim to Lordaeron?
What gives them any more right to it than the Forsaken? (Who, iirc, out number the living Refugess, who are welcome anywhere while the Forsaken are hated and were forced to fight tooth and nail for where they now live.)
Post by
Monday
While I support the fact that they deserve lordaeron, I can't and won't endorse their plans of converting every human alive into one of them.
Out of curiosity, why do they deserve Lordaeron?
They lived there in life and now in undeath?
What about the refugees, the still living humans who also have a claim to Lordaeron?
What gives them any more right to it than the Forsaken? (Who, iirc, out number the living Refugess, who are welcome anywhere while the Forsaken are hated and were forced to fight tooth and nail for where they now live.)
I'm not saying they have a greater claim, I'm just saying that it's not absolute.
Post by
Adamsm
Most of the living refugees are dead at this point, after that whole thing with Theramore. There may be some who still survive in Stormwind, but as they are now, they don't really have enough to viably till and reclaim the land; at this point in the lore, the Forsaken population of Lordaeron more then likely out numbers the living, so the Undead have the power to back up their claim.
That being said, Sylvanas has already shown that she considers all lands in the north to belong to her...which is why I want Danath Trollbane to come back and start kicking ass and taking names on the Forsaken forces =P; get his kingdom back(since he's the last living heir to the Stromguarde name) then join up with Gilneas and whoever of the Alterac family that still lives and take down that psycho Banshee %^&*! lol.
Post by
Lordplatypus
As i snowcloned before, in response to someone else
"Your forsaken, Your already dead"
Post by
Adamsm
And welcome to the World of Warcraft, where death is only the beginning; if being dead means you give up on all claims, then I guess that means Death Knights of all races have no rights, since the entire group is just a bunch of corpses.
Post by
Lordplatypus
Lol, so i can't snowclone a line?
Post by
Adamsm
Yup.
Post by
Rankkor
While I support the fact that they deserve lordaeron, I can't and won't endorse their plans of converting every human alive into one of them.
Out of curiosity, why do they deserve Lordaeron?
They lived there in life and now in undeath?
I don't support the invasion on hillsbrad and gilneas. The gilneas invasion was garrosh orders right?
Agreed. Keeping their lands? Kosher. Taking lands from other people? not so kosher.
Andorhal is a special case because it was being held by the scourge which we can all agree shouldn't really be allowed to live. But moving in on Hillsbrad, was overkill, as was the attack on Gilneas.
Again I can understand why they'd attack Gilneas (it allowed the alliance to march straight up to the forsaken backyard, as seen when the 7th legion arrived en force) but the way they treated the Gilneans (Kill them all, raise them as undead, but before killing them, enslave, and torture them) is ABSOLUTELY NOT excusable in any way, shape or form.
I don't endorse, nor condone those actions. At all.
While I support the fact that they deserve lordaeron, I can't and won't endorse their plans of converting every human alive into one of them.
Out of curiosity, why do they deserve Lordaeron?
Merits.
There are currently 3 fates that awaited the current inhabitants of Lordaeron. Part of them died, and stayed dead. These have no dispute, they're gone for good. Part of them FLED and never returned till the coast was clear. And part of them were killed, resurrected, broke free of the scourge, then fought the scourge and expelled them out of their homelands.
IMO the ones who stayed, fought, died, rezzed, fought again, and liberated their lands, deserve it more than the ones who said "screw this I'm outta here" and only bothered to came back after the forsaken did all the dirty work with the scourge.
Plus, think about this: Living refugees from Lordaeron can be given a home ANYWHERE within the alliance. Absolutely nobody is gonna turn them down. Do the forsaken have that same luxury? just about everyone wants them dead, heck, a good chunk of the horde wants them dead. They have nowhere else to go, whereas the Lordaeron survivors have plenty of other options left.
As i snowcloned before, in response to someone else
"Your forsaken, Your already dead"
I believe you meant to say "YOU'RE forsaken, YOU'RE already dead".
Also what's "snowclone"?
Post by
Adamsm
Also what's "snowclone"?
Meme crap.
Post by
Monday
IMO the ones who stayed, fought, died, rezzed, fought again, and liberated their lands, deserve it more than the ones who said "screw this I'm outta here" and only bothered to came back after the forsaken did all the dirty work with the scourge.
What if said refugees spent time fighting for the Alliance in Northrend or Outland, but didn't stay in Lordaeron. Does that still make them unworthy?
Post by
Rankkor
IMO the ones who stayed, fought, died, rezzed, fought again, and liberated their lands, deserve it more than the ones who said "screw this I'm outta here" and only bothered to came back after the forsaken did all the dirty work with the scourge.
What if said refugees spent time fighting for the Alliance in Northrend or Outland, but didn't stay in Lordaeron. Does that still make them unworthy?
outland is outland, northrend is northrend. Forsakens also fought in both of those places, they still stayed and defended their homeland and expelled the scourge from it.
Plus again, what I just told you, the survivors have plenty of other options left, whereas the forsaken don't have that luxury. They haven't exactly made many friends. Not even within the horde.
Also what's "snowclone"?
Meme crap.
why am I not surprised?
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