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Something I never really thought about until the other day regarding the Alliance
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Post by
Atik
I, personnally, support Sylvannas' attack on Gilneas.
Think about it this way. There was a giant wall in her territory, and she had no idea exactly what was happening behind it. What she did know was that there was a high chance of Worgen back there.
Worgen had previously given her quite a bit of trouple, in bother Silverpine and Northerend. So, she decides to kill several birds with one stone and just take Gilneas (Which is really a great tatical location for the Forsaken to control.)
Really, to not attack Gilneas would have probably been a massive mistake for Sylvannas.
Post by
Lordplatypus
And opened a nest of bees, personally i think blizz fumbled the ball yet again on this one, by all means slyvannas should have been pushed back by superior gilnean tech and worgen troops but no, she had to god mode her way out of it.
Infact, her attacking ANYTHING at all when she has no right to live is insane as of itself
Post by
Rankkor
I, personnally, support Sylvannas' attack on Gilneas.
The attack itself? yes. The Methods used in that attack? hell no.
I've never believed in harming civilians. No way in hell. Neither in desecrating the dead. Nor in slavery. Even less in using weapons of mass destruction.
Forsaken used all of the above.
While I could understand from a pragmatic point of view the use of the blight (Its morally wrong, but its super-effective to end a war in your favor), the forsaken used excessive, and needless cruelty in their attack. Torturing and Enslaving the civilians. Killing everyone they could so they could bolster their ranks. ect ect.
While I can understand the reasons behind the attack, and actually think it was the right thing to do, the way they treated the gilneans (Specially the civilians) is inexcusable.
Post by
Adamsm
superior gilnean tech and worgen troopsUm...what? Gilneas is behind the rest of the human races when it comes to technology, since they were locked away for more then 25 years, away from the same advances the rest of the world went through. As for the Worgen troops; they were already spread out after the war that had already been happening. At that point, they were the weaker group, so it made sense for them to withdraw rather then let their leaders be murdered.
Post by
Rankkor
And opened a nest of bees, personally i think blizz fumbled the ball yet again on this one, by all means slyvannas should have been pushed back by superior gilnean tech and worgen troops but no, she had to god mode her way out of it.
Infact, her attacking ANYTHING at all when she has no right to live is insane as of itself
Ohh because you think Worgens are immortal undefeatable, unconquerable foes.
But here's a news flash: They're not.
They're mortals, with all the limitations of any other mortal race.
Sylvannas is the most powerful Ranger to have ever existed in Azeroth, with god only knows how many decades (posibly centuries given how long-lived elves are) of experience in combat.
You just can't wrap your head around the fact that brute force isn't everything. The alliance made NUMEROUS tactical mistakes in their assault on Silverpine, and this cost them the battle and was what eventually led them to be pushed back. Of course, when nearly half of your attacking force is a bunch of feral, barely human creatures incapable of even the most basic tactics (Bloodpack) things like these are expected to happen.
And "superior" gilnean tech my ass, the forsaken and gilneans are pretty much dead-even in terms of technology.
And in case you missed it the last time
Ejem
Worgens are not immortal undefeatable machines of war.
They're living creatures. Who can die just like any other.
Post by
Atik
I, personnally, support Sylvannas' attack on Gilneas.
The attack itself? yes. The Methods used in that attack? hell no.
I've never believed in harming civilians. No way in hell. Neither in desecrating the dead. Nor in slavery. Even less in using weapons of mass destruction.
Forsaken used all of the above.
While I could understand from a pragmatic point of view the use of the blight (Its morally wrong, but its super-effective to end a war in your favor), the forsaken used excessive, and needless cruelty in their attack. Torturing and Enslaving the civilians. Killing everyone they could so they could bolster their ranks. ect ect.
While I can understand the reasons behind the attack, and actually think it was the right thing to do, the way they treated the gilneans (Specially the civilians) is inexcusable.
Honestly? I like the fact that the Forsaken use one of their biggest advantages during war time.
They're undead. They can add to their ranks as they dwindle their enemies.
It adds a certain threatening pressence to them, alongside the Blight. Just makes me like them more.
Post by
Adamsm
They're undead. They can add to their ranks as they dwindle their enemies.Only if they are up against humans; Valk's can't use their powers on any of the other races, so all that needs to be done is field massive amounts of non-humans to negate that. And the Blight is like a nuke, which can be turned on the Forsaken as well and melt them from the inside out just like it does to everyone else.
Post by
Rankkor
Honestly? I like the fact that the Forsaken use one of their biggest advantages during war time.
They're undead. They can add to their ranks as they dwindle their enemies.
It adds a certain threatening pressence to them, alongside the Blight. Just makes me like them more.
Its morally wrong. The knights of the Ebon Blade are undead too, and you don't see them bolstering their ranks with cannon fodder from the enemies remains.
Blight, while morally wrong, its undeniably effective, much like using a nuclear bomb today.
Valks? totally overkill and absolutely inexcusable.
Post by
Atik
You call it morally wrong, I say it's a tactical use of one of their greatest strengths.
Especially when you consider that after their initial craze wears off, the newly raised are given the choice we get in the very first Forsaken quest.
Then again; I, personnally, don't view being a Forsaken as that terrible. So differences in opinion, I suppose.
Post by
Adamsm
Especially when you consider that after their initial craze wears off, the newly raised are given the choice we get in the very first Forsaken quest.Yeah...serve or die again.
Post by
Atik
Especially when you consider that after their initial craze wears off, the newly raised are given the choice we get in the very first Forsaken quest.Yeah...serve or die again.
You only get killed again if you do something stupid like Redpath did. (Or Lillian, but that wasn't really the Forsaken who killed her.)
We've seen Forsaken working with various other factions such as the Argen Crusade, after all.
Post by
Adamsm
Especially when you consider that after their initial craze wears off, the newly raised are given the choice we get in the very first Forsaken quest.Yeah...serve or die again.
You only get killed again if you do something stupid like Redpath did. (Or Lillian, but that wasn't really the Forsaken who killed her.)
We've seen Forsaken working with various other factions such as the Argen Crusade, after all.
At this point in the game, if you are raised up as a Forsaken and don't goose step into line alongside all the other good little corpses, you die again. And most of the Forsaken who join things like the Argent Crusade have given up their faction before hand.
Post by
Atik
At this point in the game, if you are raised up as a Forsaken and don't goose step into line alongside all the other good little corpses, you die again.
Where has this been shown? The very first undead quest gives us the choice to leave or stay. And Blizzard has explained that all Forsaken get that same choice after they come to their senses.
Post by
Adamsm
At this point in the game, if you are raised up as a Forsaken and don't goose step into line alongside all the other good little corpses, you die again.
Where has this been shown? The very first undead quest gives us the choice to leave or stay. And Blizzard has explained that all Forsaken get that same choice after they come to their senses.
That's in Tirisfal; anywhere else, it fairly obvious that you have no choice if you are raised up into the Forsaken War Machine: You serve the Banshee Queen or you go back into the cold hard ground.
Also, while they might get the choice....isn't the Forsaken motto 'If you aren't with us, you are against us'? I doubt that they just let a new 'threat' walk away; those Forsaken who left to join the neutral factions did so as stealthily as possible, since they would have died otherwise(
Leonid
made reference to that in his original NPC dialogue, and the newest Apothecary at Plaguewood Tower says something similar).
Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Atik
anywhere else, it fairly obvious that you have no choice if you are raised up into the Forsaken War Machine
I've never gotten that vibe at all.
I mean, the very first Forsaken quest gives you the choice. And if you want to, you can stand up and walk away. Go level in Durotar if you want, they don't care.
I just don't see why it would be any different for anyone else who gets raised up.
Post by
Adamsm
anywhere else, it fairly obvious that you have no choice if you are raised up into the Forsaken War Machine
I've never gotten that vibe at all.
I mean, the very first Forsaken quest gives you the choice. And if you want to, you can stand up and walk away. Go level in Durotar if you want, they don't care.
I just don't see why it would be any different for anyone else who gets raised up.
You don't play Sylvanas game in Silverpine, in Hillsbrad, in Arathi, or in Andorhol: You will be put back down. In the starting zone, while it's true you can go level somewhere else....you are still a 'proud' member of the Forsaken nation; Redpath shows what happens to those who disagrees with the Queen of the Forsaken; after all, she sends you to kill him and his people.
And the fact is Atik, we have confirmation from Forsaken NPC's who left the faction that back up that line of thinking.
Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
anywhere else, it fairly obvious that you have no choice if you are raised up into the Forsaken War Machine
I've never gotten that vibe at all.
I mean, the very first Forsaken quest gives you the choice. And if you want to, you can stand up and walk away. Go level in Durotar if you want, they don't care.
I just don't see why it would be any different for anyone else who gets raised up.
You don't play Sylvanas game in Silverpine, in Hillsbrad, in Arathi, or in Andorhol: You will be put back down. In the starting zone, while it's true you can go level somewhere else....you are still a 'proud' member of the Forsaken nation; Redpath shows what happens to those who disagrees with the Queen of the Forsaken; after all, she sends you to kill him and his people.
And the fact is Atik, we have confirmation from Forsaken NPC's who left the faction that back up that line of thinking.
Sorry adamsm but you are in the wrong here.
At no point is there any evidence that the forsaken kill anyone who refuses to join their ranks. You get raised, and you get the choice to join or leave, both in tirisfal and anywhere else. The only way you get killed is if you do what Redpath did and specifically ATTACK the forsaken. Other than that, at no other point is there any evidence of them executing those who refuse to join them.
We're sent to kill Redpath, not because he refused to join, but because he rallied other people who refused to join too and staged an attack against deathkneel.
Also, in case nobody else has noticed, we've deviated WAAAAAAAY off-topic from what originally opened this thread xD.
Much like Godwin's law enters in effect the moment you mention Hitler or the Nazis, the Forsaken Law enters in effect the moment you start discussing them or their leader in a thread.
Post by
Adamsm
At no point is there any evidence that the forsaken kill anyone who refuses to join their ranks. You get raised, and you get the choice to join or leave, both in tirisfal and anywhere else. The only way you get killed is if you do what Redpath did and specifically ATTACK the forsaken. Other than that, at no other point is there any evidence of them executing those who refuse to join them.Again,
Leonid
and
Judkins
say otherwise, since both of them were forced to sneak away from the Forsaken after they cast off their faction choice.
We're sent to kill Redpath, not because he refused to join, but because he rallied other people who refused to join too and staged an attack against deathkneel.
That...sorta of proves what I'm saying Rank; there are also the things that Galen and others like him say in regards to why they are still stuck serving the Forsaken.
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