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Something I never really thought about until the other day regarding the Alliance
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Post by
Skreeran
Its morally wrong. The knights of the Ebon Blade are undead too, and you don't see them bolstering their ranks with cannon fodder from the enemies remains.
Blight, while morally wrong, its undeniably effective, much like using a nuclear bomb today.
Valks? totally overkill and absolutely inexcusable.
*cough*
Also, I don't really object to the Valks, at least no more than anything else the Forsaken have done. Way I see it, the newly raised undead still get their freedom in most cases (not counting political prisoners), and are freely allowed to Join the Forsaken, go their separate ways, or take their life and go back to being regular old dead.
While some (most, even) might not want to exist in that kind of state, some (like
this guy
) might appreciate the second chance.
Post by
HiVolt
Its morally wrong. The knights of the Ebon Blade are undead too, and you don't see them bolstering their ranks with cannon fodder from the enemies remains.
Blight, while morally wrong, its undeniably effective, much like using a nuclear bomb today.
Valks? totally overkill and absolutely inexcusable.
*cough*
Also, I don't really object to the Valks, at least no more than anything else the Forsaken have done. Way I see it, the newly raised undead still get their freedom in most cases (not counting political prisoners), and are freely allowed to Join the Forsaken, go their separate ways, or take their life and go back to being regular old dead.
While some (most, even) might not want to exist in that kind of state, some (like
this guy
) might appreciate the second chance.
I tend to agree with Skree on this one. After all, the Forsaken can't reproduce, so why not raise dead people? They're already dead. It's not as if they really
can
have a say in the matter. And if they could choose to either stay dead or become undead, how many of those might actually choose the latter option? It's probably more than you'd suspect. Humans have a natural aversion to being dead.
Post by
Lordplatypus
Think of it this way.
Would you live again as a corpse or stay in heaven?
Post by
Atik
Think of it this way.
Would you live again as a corpse or stay in heaven?
1. Warcraft doesn't follow out concepts of the afterlife.
2. I would rather be a Forsaken.
Post by
Lordplatypus
your own leader's short proved the concepts of afterlife.
and ofcourse,
2: I wouldn't
Post by
Rankkor
At no point is there any evidence that the forsaken kill anyone who refuses to join their ranks. You get raised, and you get the choice to join or leave, both in tirisfal and anywhere else. The only way you get killed is if you do what Redpath did and specifically ATTACK the forsaken. Other than that, at no other point is there any evidence of them executing those who refuse to join them.Again,
Leonid
and
Judkins
say otherwise, since both of them were forced to sneak away from the Forsaken after they cast off their faction choice.
t.... Those are not the same man, not at all. Those were raised, they ACCEPTED TO JOIN, and then after they accepted, they eventually saw the horrors they were commiting, and deserted. And forsaken (Any group really, the rest of the horde and the alliance does the same) don't take kindly to deserters.
Its not the same as someone who's raised, its given the option to join, and never says yes.
That...sorta of proves what I'm saying Rank;
Wha? no it doesnt. Redpath wasn't killed because he said no, he was killed because he attacked Deathkneel along with others.
If he had said no, and he had just walked away, he would had been left alone (at least by the forsaken)
Post by
HiVolt
Think of it this way.
Would you live again as a corpse or stay in heaven?
That's assuming the person in question is going to be in heaven. I'd certainly get pulled out of hell if the only option was undeath. You can't assume that everyone who dies in battle is completely innocent.
Post by
Skreeran
Think of it this way.
Would you live again as a corpse or stay in heaven?
That's assuming the person in question is going to be in heaven. I'd certainly get pulled out of hell if the only option was undeath. You can't assume that everyone who dies in battle is completely innocent.This is also assuming that Warcraft has heaven and hell as we think about them. Sure, Sylvanas, like Arthas, saw only darkness before her, but was that because she was sinful, our because she was undead? Is there a heaven? If so, who goes there? All good people, or just good light-followers? Trolls believe in reincarnation, but is that enough to make it true?
Sylvanas' story wad enough to hint at the afterlife for her personally, but that isn't enough to start assuming there is a Christianesque Heaven or Hell.
Post by
Rankkor
Its morally wrong. The knights of the Ebon Blade are undead too, and you don't see them bolstering their ranks with cannon fodder from the enemies remains.
Blight, while morally wrong, its undeniably effective, much like using a nuclear bomb today.
Valks? totally overkill and absolutely inexcusable.
*cough*
Whoa, I missed that.... :P
Well, Army of the Dead is different than using a valk. Sure its still desecrating the dead, but I'm merely borrowing them for a moment to lend me their aid (just as when I summon a boneshield). After the deed is done, I release them from service and allow them to rest.
Lorewise my Dk isn't unholy, but frost. Heck, in the story I've laid out for her, she's only used Army of the Dead 3 times, and all of them were due to being outnumbered severely.
Its not the same to momentarily ressurect a few people and then release them, than permanently imposing a cursed existence onto someone. Forever.
Even Sylvannas has this as a quote "What joy is there in this curse?" and "What are we if not slaves to this torment?"
So being a forsaken isn't exactly candies and sunshine.
Think of it this way.
Would you live again as a corpse or stay in heaven?
That's assuming the person in question is going to be in heaven. I'd certainly get pulled out of hell if the only option was undeath. You can't assume that everyone who dies in battle is completely innocent.This is also assuming that Warcraft has heaven and hell as we think about them. Sure, Sylvanas, like Arthas, saw only darkness before her, but was that because she was sinful, our because she was undead? Is there a heaven? If so, who goes there? All good people, or just good light-followers? Trolls believe in reincarnation, but is that enough to make it true?
Sylvanas' story wad enough to hint at the afterlife for her personally, but that isn't enough to start assuming there is a Christianesque Heaven or Hell.
Well, originally in War1, the northshire priests were stated to be believers of God. Of course the game has changed a ton since then.
But in war3, Uther specifically says to arthas "I hope there is a special place in hell waiting for you, Arthas" So at least the humans in the alliance do believe in some form of hell where the wicked and the evil-doers go to after they die.
The cringe-worthy "Crusader Brindenbrad" questline, also hints at a naaru-inspired heaven-like afterlife. But so far nothing concrete has been shown.
Post by
Skreeran
One could argue that all a Forsaken has to do to release themselves is find a sufficiently tall cliff...
And I still don't think there's really a "Hell" or "Heaven" in the Warcraft universe. Since War1, they've really worked hard to build their own cosmology. Generally, the "Twisting Nether" has replaced most references Hell as a theological concept, and while Bridenbrad had his thing, that wad both an unusual case is the Warcraft universe and was a memorial in real life, so I wouldn't assume it to be normal.
Orcs, at least have a semi-clear afterlife (since they're one of the few cultures that can speak to their dead), but just about everyone else is still shrouded in mystery (actually, now that I think about it, Nelfs become wisps when they die, iirc). Each culture has their own beliefs, but can we assume they're all right?
Post by
oneforthemoney
Wasn't the orc's afterlife getting trapped in that downed spaceship in the middle of Nagrand? Or, has that changed since then.
Post by
Skreeran
Not sure if that ever got fixed or not. Too tired to look it up.
Post by
Lordplatypus
Your in a spaceship in the afterlife,
One ruled by living proof your nemesis's religon being right.
Yup sucks to be you orcs.
Post by
Adamsm
Wasn't the orc's afterlife getting trapped in that downed spaceship in the middle of Nagrand? Or, has that changed since then.
If you did the quest line for the Hero of Mag'har, I think you ended up stopping the spirits being drawn to the wounded K'ure....well at least you dealt with the Legion forces trying to manipulate it.
Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
Your in a spaceship in the afterlife,
One ruled by living proof your nemesis's religon being right.
Yup sucks to be you orcs.
BZZZZZZZZ wrong!
Sorry timmy, better luck next time.
Only the orcs in outland were drawn to Oshu'gun, and even then, in the "Hero of Mag'har" you stop all the orc spirits from converging there, since K'ure is dieing.
And the orcs that die in Azeroth have never gone, nor will they ever go anywhere near that place (you see in "Hero of the Mag'har" that ALL of the orc spirits there are brown-skinned.)
The afterlife, from the PoV of the orcs, taurens, and trolls, is that your spirit rejoins the land, and becomes a part of the spirit of the wilds. If you don't reincarnate that is.
Post by
HiVolt
I'm starting to think that this afterlife topic merits its own thread.
Also:
Your in a spaceship in the afterlife,
One ruled by living proof your nemesis's religon being right.
Yup sucks to be you orcs.
The Naaru don't prove the rightness of the holy light. They're incarnations of it, but elementals are the incarnations of earth, fire, air, and water. By that logic, shamanism is at least equally correct.
Post by
Rankkor
I'm starting to think that this afterlife topic merits its own thread.
Also:
Your in a spaceship in the afterlife,
One ruled by living proof your nemesis's religon being right.
Yup sucks to be you orcs.
The Naaru don't prove the rightness of the holy light. They're incarnations of it, but elementals are the incarnations of earth, fire, air, and water. By that logic, shamanism is at least equally correct.
If anything, it proves that neither is superior to the other, or "more right". As the Naaru, and the Orc spirits on Oshu'gun were acting in perfect symbiosis. In fact, the orc spirits were HELPING keep the Naaru alive.
Post by
Wilicil
They're undead. They can add to their ranks as they dwindle their enemies.Only if they are up against humans; Valk's can't use their powers on any of the other races, so all that needs to be done is field massive amounts of non-humans to negate that. And the Blight is like a nuke, which can be turned on the Forsaken as well and melt them from the inside out just like it does to everyone else.
Where was it stated that Sylvanas' val'kyr only work on humans? All I've seen of her val'kyr were in Silverpine, where they didn't work on the worgen, I assume because of their curse, but what's stopping them from raising dwarves or gnomes, or even horde races? If I recall, the val'kyr you fight before Valithria in Icecrown Citadel raises a dwarf and a blood elf when you pull her, although I believe the elf was already undead, and I don't remember if the dwarf was alive or not before.
Post by
Atik
They're undead. They can add to their ranks as they dwindle their enemies.Only if they are up against humans; Valk's can't use their powers on any of the other races, so all that needs to be done is field massive amounts of non-humans to negate that. And the Blight is like a nuke, which can be turned on the Forsaken as well and melt them from the inside out just like it does to everyone else.
Where was it stated that Sylvanas' val'kyr only work on humans? All I've seen of her val'kyr were in Silverpine, where they didn't work on the worgen, I assume because of their curse, but what's stopping them from raising dwarves or gnomes, or even horde races? If I recall, the val'kyr you fight before Valithria in Icecrown Citadel raises a dwarf and a blood elf when you pull her, although I believe the elf was already undead, and I don't remember if the dwarf was alive or not before.
The whole "Valks only raise humans" was a retcon added with Cata. They also show up in Plaguelands I know, where they can only raise humans.
It was explicitly explained by Blizzard, because people misinterpreted the Silverpine deal as Worgen being immune to Undeath, so they shed light on the situation.
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