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Blazing Skies (Q&A) DERAILED: RELIGUN
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Post by
Atik
Light doesn't directly kill the Forsaken.
It causes them intense pain, and slowly burns away at them (Being healed by the light cauterizes the wound) But a strong enough Forsaken can continue fighting through it.
Also, it's never been stated that Worgen are super-soilders. On the contrary, both the starting zone and Silverpine show Forsaken ripping into them and going toe-to-toe.
Post by
oneforthemoney
Hey look, another Forsaken argument on the board.
Post by
Lordplatypus
A. since when can priests bestow blood fury on people? Unless you're referring to a voodoo priest, I've never heard of this ability.
Pain supression, Blood fury ALSO gives pain supression effects lorewise
You seem to have gotten your points completely backwards. The Forsaken are about as powerful, if not slightly more so, as the average human soldier, but they lack numbers that the other races have, since the other races can biologically reproduce, while the Forsaken cannot.
The forsaken numberically outmatch others in the battlefield, an effect we have seen before, and i might be refering to WC3 abit much but i literally cannot see how a footman, sentinel or any other average frontline soldier (Gnome and Goblin aside) Can't beat a forsaken due to superior strength and agility.
Hrm, do I detect bias? Moving on.
Superior phsyical abilities, Still keep human mind (More intelligent than the other "Muscle" races like orcs and trolls), Agility, Independence from mounts for high speed, Agile, capable of hunting for themselves due to wolf nature.
I see no reference to rotting.
Also, on the note of the Holy Light: yes, the Light does destroy them, much in the same way that Fel/Necromantic magics kill humans. This indicates that their powers cancel, no?
Not quite, For as you see, does necromantic magic have a direct healing effect on the forsaken? You'd still need materials for healing. So i'd give the light a slight lean.
Respond to this. I dare you. I also dare you to back up your reasoning with sources.
Ahem. First of i have to remind you this "Lore" is the same stuff fed to us to explain taurenladins or dorf shamans. Gameplay>Lore, hence if a healer can't heal undead, that would make them rather underpowered, the same reason they are considered humanoid. BALANCE, but without further ado.
By channeling the positive energies of the Light, paladins can form a wave of healing
energy to mend their comrades’ wounds. This holy energy is also capable of causing
damage to the undead and their dark masters.
Post by
Sparkbolt
You seem to have gotten your points completely backwards. The Forsaken are about as powerful, if not slightly more so, as the average human soldier, but they lack numbers that the other races have, since the other races can biologically reproduce, while the Forsaken cannot.
The forsaken numberically outmatch others in the battlefield, an effect we have seen before, and i might be refering to WC3 abit much but i literally cannot see how a footman, sentinel or any other average frontline soldier (Gnome and Goblin aside) Can't beat a forsaken due to superior strength and agility.
You seem to be talking about the scourge more then you do the forsaken when you bring up numbers.
Hrm, do I detect bias? Moving on.
Superior phsyical abilities, Still keep human mind (More intelligent than the other "Muscle" races like orcs and trolls), Agility, Independence from mounts for high speed, Agile, capable of hunting for themselves due to wolf nature.
I see no reference to rotting.
Rotting is the only thing going against them.
Worgen on the other hand. They have to eat, sleep, breath, none of the things the forsaken have to worry about. Care for wounds that would cause them to die while the forsaken can keep fighting after losing a limb. Forsaken can be just as agile(Darkrangers and lightslayers). Forsaken still have a human mind to and use them where as worgen needed a potion to keep them from going feral and killing there unaffected kin.
Post by
Skreeran
Lol derailed.
But yeah, I've done all the Forsaken starting areas (pre- and post-Cataclysm), play a Forsaken as my main, and played the hell out of Warcraft 3.
The way I see it, Forsaken are certainly very durable. Granted, their flesh might not be as tough as a living creature (my character doesn't even like to get wet, because it makes his skin slough off), but they in return, they don't need it as much. Yes, if you hit a human man in the thigh with an axe the axe won't sink as deep as it will on a Forsaken (who is at a much greater risk of losing the limb altogether, thanks to rotting meat and dead bones vs. living sinew and blood flow), but on the other hand, if you hit the living man's femoral artery, he's now a dead man. His leg is physically more durable, but if you hit it right, his whole body is at stake. The Forsaken, on the other hand, could be stripped of all their flesh and keep fighting.
Set a man on fire, and he's down for the count. Set a Forsaken on fire, and I'm sure he'll be unhappy, but he's going to take it out on your face.
In addition, I think, initially, Forsaken would be a bit stronger than a normal human, too. They would have access to their muscles' full reserves, free of pain. If they needed to, they count use their muscles until they ripped themselves apart. On the other hand, once your muscles have ripped themselves apart, you're going to need to see a Shadow priest or you're going to be much, much weaker than a normal human. So as far as strength go, I would say that Forsaken have more reserves, but it would require a much greater amount of maintenance than a living persons'.
Post by
Lordplatypus
By battlefield numbers, i mean the forsaken have valkyr on the battlefield raising troops, while humans, orcs etc. need to send reinforcements. That's what i was saying.
Again, it's certain that the forsaken are rather durable, and feeling no pain is infact a curse and a blessing.
Without pain, there is no idea if you could go on any further, if your body is barely holding together and you can't feel it, this causes overconfidence, but it also gives you the ability to resist shock.
An undead's unique weakness to the holy light is caused by the opposing nature of light and shadow magics, an undead being animated by necromancy, is pure darkness, and hence 0/100. Most races are around 50/50 (Orcs, Blood Elves) to 90/10 (Draenei) and anywhere in between. Or so my theory goes.
And most importantly, this is only a restriction on the masses of fodder each faction has in addition to the heroes. who ofcourse are more or less equal to other heroes in combat.
Heroes are THEM not the ] ], they are almost all unique, unlike a video game toon.
Post by
Skreeran
Incidentally, I went ahead and pulled the War3 stats from the classic website. I compared the Humans Footman and Militia units against the Undead Ghoul and Skeletal Warrior units. For simplicities' sake, I used the fully upgraded stats (also provided on the website), rather than the base stats.
Footman
8 armor
17 Avg Dmg
Militia
10 Armor
17 Avg Dmg
Ghoul
6 Armor
17.5 Avg Dmg
Skeletal Warrior
7 Armor
19 Avg Dmg
I know that Gameplay≠Lore, but it is interesting. The Skeleton Warrior is almost as durable as the footman, and does a little bit more damage.
Post by
Adamsm
Still keep human mind (More intelligent than the other "Muscle" races like orcs and trolls)Horse crap; there are many stupid Worgens out there, just as there are stupid humans, gnomes, draenei, and night elves. There are also numerous intelligent trolls and orcs.
i mean the forsaken have valkyr on the battlefield raising troopsValks only work on humans; all other Alliance races are immune to their powers, so if the Forsaken are fighting Worgens, Dwarves, Gnomes, Draenei, Night Elves or Pandarens, the flying ghosts are just targets.
Edit: Also, you derailed your own thread by insulting a member of the Horde.
Edit 2: For as you see, does necromantic magic have a direct healing effect on the forsaken?Actually it does; it lets the Necromancer put a damaged Undead back together after they've been hacked apart and can bring them back again even if they've lost their head.
Edit 3: You can ask pretty much anyone on this board: I am not a Forsaken fan by any stretch, but seeing someone insult those who do like the race, spew misinformation, and just plan be vile, I'm gonna respond to that. You want people to RP, make sure you check your bias at the door and don't act like Humans are just gonna instant kill the playable Undead race.
Post by
Lordplatypus
Horse crap; there are many stupid Worgens out there, just as there are stupid humans, gnomes, draenei, and night elves. There are also numerous intelligent trolls and orcs.
Keyword: Average.
Valks only work on humans; all other Alliance races are immune to their powers, so if the Forsaken are fighting Worgens, Dwarves, Gnomes, Draenei, Night Elves or Pandarens, the flying ghosts are just targets.
True, but that would mean the largest kingdom would effectively be out of the war to deny the forsaken their advantage.
Actually it does; it lets the Necromancer put a damaged Undead back together after they've been hacked apart and can bring them back again even if they've lost their head.
*Slam head on wall* You still need body parts, as opposed to the light (Although I'm not sure how it works with hacked off limbs, might need more info)
And please, will you cut the insults. I feel like I'm dealing with a child
Incidentally, I went ahead and pulled the War3 stats from the classic website. I compared the Humans Footman and Militia units against the Undead Ghoul and Skeletal Warrior units. For simplicities' sake, I used the fully upgraded stats (also provided on the website), rather than the base stats.
Footman
8 armor
17 Avg Dmg
420 Hp
Militia
10 Armor
17 Avg Dmg
220 Hp
Ghoul
6 Armor
17.5 Avg Dmg
340 hp
Skeletal Warrior
7 Armor
19 Avg Dmg
180 hp
I know that Gameplay≠Lore, but it is interesting. The Skeleton Warrior is almost as durable as the footman, and does a little bit more damage.
I took the liberty of adding in the hp stats. It's alot different with the perspective no? Datamined straight from the editor. In effect, an undead warrior has half the hp of an footman give or take a few. but what's really interesting is that the ghoul and miltia seem to match up well. Btw, glad i'm not the only one who still goes to that site XP
EDIT:
Edit 3: You can ask pretty much anyone on this board: I am not a Forsaken fan by any stretch, but seeing someone insult those who do like the race, spew misinformation, and just plan be vile, I'm gonna respond to that. You want people to RP, make sure you check your bias at the door and don't act like Humans are just gonna instant kill the playable Undead race.
Did you even read my last post? I said it only affects the fodder, since heroes obivous represent the best or such of each race, and vary as indivuals
Post by
Adamsm
You still need body parts, as opposed to the light (Although I'm not sure how it works with hacked off limbs, might need more info)The Light cannot reattach a severed limb, so yeah, the Necromancy the Forsaken have the 'advantage' there. And of course, there's the fact that unlike a human, if a Forsaken loses a limb, the Necromancer/Cult of Shadow member can just graft a new one onto them and they are good to go again.
Keyword: Average.Then if you are going by that....pretty much all of the 'average' members are roaring idiots on both sides of the faction war.
Edit:Did you even read my last post? I said it only affects the fodder, since heroes obivous represent the best or such of each race, and vary as indivualsIf it's the 'fodder' then I guess you can just blow away the Alliance people too, since they don't count /roll eyes That's not a way to RP, since being the invincible hero is incredibly boring.
Post by
Lordplatypus
The Light cannot reattach a severed limb, so yeah, the Necromancy the Forsaken have the 'advantage' there. And of course, there's the fact that unlike a human, if a Forsaken loses a limb, the Necromancer/Cult of Shadow member can just graft a new one onto them and they are good to go again.
I'll give you this, but forsaken limbs come off easier.
If it's the 'fodder' then I guess you can just blow away the Alliance people too, since they don't count /roll eyes That's not a way to RP, since being the invincible hero is incredibly boring.
I really don't know how to put it, "Mooks" "Grunts" "Regulars". But fodder wasn't the best choice, and ofcourse theres the edge of numbers, but overall they serve as background to the main characters.
Then if you are going by that....pretty much all of the 'average' members are roaring idiots on both sides of the faction war.
That we agree on, but i mean average of the race itself.
Post by
Adamsm
There is no average though; sure the Orcs have the Peons, but a huge majority of the race are of the same intelligence as Humans, especially now that the Fel corruption is gone. And Trolls are one of the smarter races on Azeroth; when your primary enemy are Elves, you have to be. Even the Dire's have a chance to be just as intelligent as their smaller cousins.
Post by
Lordplatypus
Intelligence is not only your actual intelligence level, but also education and environment.
A human would likely be better educated than an orc, a dwarf moreso than a troll, a blood elf more so than a night elf. so on so on. It's an effect even in our society.
An orc would usually learn a few legends and how to fight, while a dwarf learns basics of steam tech and so forth.
Post by
470415
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
And? That doesn't mean much when you have a 9 foot troll dropping out of the tree tops and skewers you. Also, considering how many of the orcs know how to use Goblin tech and their own siege weapons, how to built boats etc etc, it's not like Orc society is somehow 'less' then any of the others.
And not all Dwarves learn about steam tech; the Wildhammers don't, preferring their animal partners. Does that make them 'dumber' then their cousins?
Post by
Lordplatypus
Does a person from the 3rd world seem dumber than someone from the 1rst? Yes. But it doesn't involve IQ. And being able to treat a rifle properly is key when sniping a Tauren through the skull. (Badly maintained rifles tend to have misfires and whatnot.)
9 foot troll
9 foot in heigh while hunchbacked or non-hunchbacked?
Considering blood elves stemmed from quel'dorei, who came from night elves, night elves are just as educated, if not more so, than blood elves. I'd put them more equal, but night elves have been around longer...
I'd say night elves put too much stock into nature to learn much, compared to an arcane-centric race, where intellect is key. But you get the idea.
Post by
Adamsm
Does a person from the 3rd world seem dumber than someone from the 1rst? Yes.That's....you know that comment is just stupid: There are lots of '3rd worlders' who know just as much as a 1st worlder and in fact know more about the real important things(IE survival) that if you dropped a 1st worlder into their lands, said 1st worlder would probably be dead in less then a day.
And being able to treat a rifle properly is key when sniping a Tauren through the skull. (Badly maintained rifles tend to have misfires and whatnot.)Okay and? Since you know, Orcs use rifles, some trolls use rifles, even some Taurens use rifles; they aren't all about bows, spears and crossbows after all.....
9 foot in heigh while hunchbacked or non-hunchbacked?Forest trolls are 9 feet standing straight up; the Forest Trolls have also racked up the most kills on both Elves and Humans over the centuries, since they are the most cunning and intelligent of the tribes.
I'd say night elves put too much stock into nature to learn much, compared to an arcane-centric race, where intellect is key. But you get the idea.Yet, the Highborne of Dire Maul put their High/Blood Elf cousins to shame when it comes to what they were able to do while hiding...and those were all Night Elves. And the fact that the Night Elves put stock in nature means nothing really; their civilization is the fourth oldest natural occurring one(IE not created by the Titans), with the Taurens and the Trolls being around for longer, and as we found out since going to Pandaria, the Aqir were the very first, so the Mantids, Nerubians and Silithids created the very first Empire. And as we found out during the War of the Shifting Sands, while the Silithids seem like 'dumb' beasts, they are anything but.
So technology doesn't mean a race is more intelligent, it just means they have bigger toys; heck look at the Goblins: They are tied for smartest race on Azeroth with the Gnomes, but even their tech routinely explodes(just like the Gnomes does).
Post by
Lordplatypus
Oh god, you really believe this don't you?
Please, GET YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR FANTASY AND INTO THE REAL WORLD. Education is the exception and not the norm in many 3rd world nations, and this is what i was refering to.
Old civilizations doesn't mean better, something i've been trying to say for how many times now? A blood elf would be more intellectually capable than a night elf on average due to the arcane magic-centeric culture, which i already said, but you refuse to believe.
Scientific advancement and higher average intelligence go hand in hand. Even today the world proves my theory right, and technology is often the harbinger of scientific success.
Okay and? Since you know, Orcs use rifles, some trolls use rifles, even some Taurens use rifles; they aren't all about bows, spears and crossbows after all.....
1) Exception not norm, Something i've been saying throughout multiple posts but you always use the exception as examples
2) I simply pointed out intelligence is far more valuable than you keep saying it is.
Post by
Adamsm
But you have intelligence confused with technology; just because someone knows how to take apart and clean a rifle, doesn't mean they are automatically smarter then another race.
Old civilizations doesn't mean better, something i've been trying to say for how many times now? A blood elf would be more intellectually capable than a night elf on average due to the arcane magic-centeric culture, which i already said, but you refuse to believe.Because it's bull$%^& sorry to say; the Night Elves have forgotten more things then the High/Blood have ever learned, and since they have had the return of the Highbourne(you know the original Magical Experimenters), they have a chance to regain what they lost at the time of the War of the Ancients.
Really, as seen during the Troll Wars, where Humans had no idea at all about Magic and needed to be taught it by the High Elves, says they weren't all that 'advanced' either.
And in the world of Azeroth, it really doesn't; you have 4 races of Dwarves after all, and out of the four only the Ironforge dwarves use technology regularly, yet that doesn't mean that they are smarter then the other dwarf races....which is shown in game, since it was the Wildhammer and Dark Irons who retaught shamanism to their cousins. As for the Frost/Iron/Steel Dwarves, they may be more intelligent then the regular flesh and blood dwarves, but they'd be 'dumb' in how new Azreoth works.
Also,
we are discussing a fantasy world that already works outside of the rules of the 'real world'
; IE dead bodies don't really walk around. Stop trying to act like what happens in our world has any bearing at all to Azeroth.
Edit: Also, to this:Education is the exception and not the norm in many 3rd world nations, and this is what i was refering to.I know quite a few people who went through University, and they are dumb as stumps. Education doesn't mean jack to actual intelligence, it just means you learned how to do something.
Post by
Lordplatypus
I know quite a few people who went through University, and they are dumb as stumps. Education doesn't mean jack to actual intelligence, it just means you learned how to do something.
They went in literature and those other none-subjects didn't they? ACTUAL science (Physics, Chemistry, Etc) generally produces smart people.
Because it's bull$%^& sorry to say; the Night Elves have forgotten more things then the High/Blood have ever learned, and since they have had the return of the Highbourne(you know the original Magical Experimenters), they have a chance to regain what they lost at the time of the War of the Ancients.
Just having a few of them doesn't mean a culture centered around them, hence my arguement stands.
Really, as seen during the Troll Wars, where Humans had no idea at all about Magic and needed to be taught it by the High Elves, says they weren't all that 'advanced' either.
And took to it better than anyone expected, it would be accurate to say humans would discover magic by themselves in given time.
only the Ironforge dwarves use technology regularly
Dark Iron
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