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Blazing Skies (Q&A) DERAILED: RELIGUN
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Post by
Adamsm
They went in literature and those other none-subjects didn't they? ACTUAL science (Physics, Chemistry, Etc) generally produces smart people.Nope, engineering, computer science and the like; put them in front of a piece of machinery and they can make it stand up and dance.....have them anywhere else, and you can make them believe whatever you say. Education means jack !@#$ when it comes to intelligence.
Just having a few of them doesn't mean a culture centered around them, hence my arguement stands.Statements like that mean you have no real argument, so I'll stop there since you are just putting yourself in a corner.
And took to it better than anyone expected, it would be accurate to say humans would discover magic by themselves in given time.I doubt that; humans didn't have a connection to the arcane till the Elves introduced it to them. Without that 'help' the humans would just be the standard dumb muscle. Also, as it stands, the Human kingdoms aren't the most 'advanced' on Azeroth; that honour goes to the Goblins and the Gnomes, then the Dwarves. They are middle ground, since all of their grand machinery are things they got from their allies; Skyfire was built by Dwarf and Gnome engineers, the Northrend steam ships were built by the gnomes, the steam tanks are Dwarven make; so while they can operate it, they can't really duplicate it.
Dark IronThe Dark Irons made Golems, but they didn't build tanks, didn't build planes, didn't build any other major machines. The Great Gate in Blackrock was built by the Dwarves as whole.
Post by
Atik
I feel the need to mention that Forsaken are quite advanced in terms of science. They are capable of raising mindless undead without the use of the Val'Kyr, ceating and mass producing the Blight (possibly the most dangerous weapon in WoW right now, or at least right up with the likes of the mana bomb), can poke a person's brain and turn them into a mindless slave, build Abominations and Flesh Giants, ect.
Post by
Adamsm
ceating and mass producing the BlightOf course, they did have a Dreadlord helping them with that creation.
Post by
Morec0
ceating and mass producing the BlighOf course, they did have a Dreadlord helping them with that creation.
Aye, but really only in terms of gaining certain materials more quickly - if my memory serves right. Given enough time, they likely could have made the same progress (again; not as quickly, though) without the dreadlord's help.
Post by
Adamsm
Well
Castillian
brought the vial of stuff to Vari, which is what let them finally finish it off. Without that, probably the Blight wouldn't have been as potent.
Post by
Morec0
Well
Castillian
brought the vial of stuff to Vari, which is what let them finally finish it off. Without that, probably the Blight wouldn't have been as potent.
That's what I'm saying; they could have gotten the vial of stuff they needed, one way or another, without Vari's or Castillian's help eventually. Someone surely would have figured out it needed more omph and deduced what would give it that omph.
Post by
Lordplatypus
Personally, I think the blight was just the same stuff arthas uses with green food coloring in it. But thats just me being an idiot.
Statements like that mean you have no real argument, so I'll stop there since you are just putting yourself in a corner.
Statements like this make no sense whatsoever since it's basically chewbaca defense.
Anyhow, the forsaken potions tend to be on the single-purpose type, and theres not much other than standard "Frankenstein's monster" Type stuff. Which was really predictable.
As for humans, i direct you to the holy light.
And their architecture was considered some of the best.
Tech wise
High tier: Gnomes Dwarves Draenei
Medium High Tier: Humans Forsaken Goblins
Medium Tier: Tauren, High/Blood Elves, Pandaren
Medium Low Tier: Orcs Trolls
Low Tier: Night Elves
Just discovered what a pointy stick is: Gnolls
Still to discover what a point stick is: Forum posters
Going to stop posting here, Place face in pillow attempt sleep
Post by
Adamsm
Medium Low Tier: Orcs Trolls
Low Tier: Night ElvesBull crap; that's your bias. All three of those are the same as Humans when it comes to technology. If anything, the Tauren would be the Medium Low tier since they don't rely on Technology very much. And considering that the High/Blood Elves built their Guardian constructs, I'd say they are up there with the High Tier; also, Goblins are high tier too, since they developed the original Zeppelins quite a bit before the Gnomes made their gyrocopters and Dwarves began building their planes.
As for humans, i direct you to the holy light.
And their architecture was considered some of the best.Too bad the Holy Light is shared with Dwarves and High Elves eh? As for the architecture comment; I've heard more good things about the High Elf lands then I have about the northern kingdoms; and Stormwind has nothing on Ironforge, Darnassus, the Exodar and Silvermoon.
Post by
Skreeran
Personally, I think the blight was just the same stuff arthas uses with green food coloring in it. But thats just me being an idiot.Well, no. The Plague of Undeath was a virulent disease (i.e. it was highly infecitious), most probably a fungus that was spread through infected food or water (see:
Nature of the Plague
). The Blight, on the other hand, while also a biological weapon, is very different in its purpose and function.
Most bio-weapons, at least in theory, are intended to affect a strictly controlled area. You can aerosolize it and dispense it over the intended target, or you can use a different vector, but either way, the goal is strictly to affect the target, and to minimize its affect on the rest of the world. What good is a bio-weapon that could wipe out all life on Earth? That's how the Forsaken designed theirs, at any rate. It is 100% lethal, but only on the target area. To my knowledge, the Blight is not infectious at all.
Ner'zhul's plague, however,
was
intended to wipe out all life on Azeroth, and it was designed that way, mainly through virulence.
Of course, the biggest difference is that the Plague of Undeath resurrected its victims as zombies, while the Blight dissolves its victims to poisonous sludge.
Bull crap; that's your bias. All three of those are the same as Humans when it comes to technology. If anything, the Tauren would be the Medium Low tier since they don't rely on Technology very much. And considering that the High/Blood Elves built their Guardian constructs, I'd say they are up there with the High Tier; also, Goblins are high tier too, since they developed the original Zeppelins quite a bit before the Gnomes made their gyrocopters and Dwarves began building their planes.Actually, I can kinda see what he means.
Orcs contract a lot of their technology out to goblins. Zeppelins, for example. They are still intelligent, and can built decently complicated machines when needed (see:
Demolisher
), but I think it is worth noting that Orcs
life much more simple lives than humans
, technology wise. Orcs are just as intelligent, on average, as humans, I agree, but humans generally base their lives around technology and magic to a much, much greater degree than orcs. Humans have
magical colleges
, where you can go and learn things like
this
, whereas Orcs mainly rely on Shamanism, which while no less potent, could certainly be said to be less technical.
The point is, Orcs and Trolls are intelligent, sure, but they don't rely on technology or arcane magic to the same extent as humans.
If I could made my own suggestions to the list, I say it was more like this:
Levels of Technological Advancement and Dependency
:
Highest Tier: Gnomes, Draenei, Goblins
High Tier: Dwarves, Blood/Elves
Medium: Humans, Fosaken
Low: Orcs, Trolls, Pandaren, Night Elves
Post by
Adamsm
Low dependency sure, but not the actual tech progression; what with the Orcish Destroyers and Juggernauts, where the designs came with them through the Dark Portal, as well as building the Portal itself. Also, look at the tech used in the reformatting of Orgrimmar; sure some of it is Goblin, but a lot of it is Orcish as well.
Post by
Skreeran
Note, though, that in the Second War, their Destroyers and Juggernauts were based on designs from the trolls and ogres, respectively.
To illustrate my point, consider an
Orcish Destroyer
versus the
Alliance Icebreaker
. Aside from the aesthetic differences, the Horde chooses strong and simple, while the Alliance chooses advanced and ornate.
Likewise with the airships. Even if the Alliance used the gnomes to design the Skybreaker, it's still telling that the Alliance chose a complicated technical piece of machinery, while the Horde opted to build on their much more simple zeppelin technology.
Neither side is more intelligent than the other, but I think its plainly obvious that the Alliance, and in particular the humans over the orcs, is a more technically progressive society than the Horde, a fact I would attribute to the natural orcs tribal culture.
Post by
Monday
Oh god, you really believe this don't you?
Please, GET YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR FANTASY AND INTO THE REAL WORLD.
*slam head on wall*
And please, will you cut the insults. I feel like I'm dealing with a child
Oh God, the hypocrisy; It burns so much.
The forsaken numberically outmatch others in the battlefield, an effect we have seen before, and i might be refering to WC3
abit
much
You mean "too much." That was the SCOURGE. Not the Forsaken. Kind of a huge difference there.
Ahem. First of i have to remind you this "Lore" is the same stuff fed to us to explain taurenladins or dorf shamans.
So, basically, what you're saying is that you can spout whatever you want, and you never need to back it up? Seems legit.
Also, dwarf shamans fit perfectly well with the lore, as you would know if you had played Warcraft III.
And took to it better than anyone expected, it would be accurate to say humans would discover magic by themselves in given time.
Not necessarily. Goblins took well to technology, but without the kajamite, they would have never discovered technology for themselves.
Dark Iron
Dark Irons use magic far more than technology. Take a look at Blackrock Mountain: almost everything there was forged and then magically animated, or summoned from the Plane of Fire.
ACTUAL science (Physics, Chemistry, Etc) generally produces smart people.
Um, no. They never "produce" smart people. What they do is weed out the ones that don't fit, leaving only those with the right skillset. A course will never actually make someone physically smarter. It might add to their knowledge banks and increase their experience, but it won't actually increase their raw intelligence.
Old civilizations doesn't mean better, something i've been trying to say for how many times now? A blood elf would be more intellectually capable than a night elf on average due to the arcane magic-centeric culture, which i already said, but you refuse to believe.
Why do you say this? What does the arcane have to do with raw intelligence?
Sure, they might need to be able to crunch numbers or channel magic to cast an arcane spell, but don't the night elves have to spend years in nature and the wild to find balance? They're intelligent in different things: blood elves might be good with the casting of magical spells, while the night elves are more at home with nature and handling animals.
There is absolutely no way to compare them. They both require completely different skillsets and capacities. You might have a druid who is smarter than a mage by virtue of being born with greater intelligence.
GET YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR FANTASY AND INTO THE REAL WORLD.
I had no idea that Azeroth was the real world. My life has new meaning.
1) Exception not norm, Something i've been saying throughout multiple posts but you always use the exception as examples
Since when has it been the "rare" thing. If we're going by gameplay, which I assume are allowed, since you used the stats from WIII units earlier (and if we were to throw out one argument for using gameplay, we can throw them all out), then the orcs/tauren use guns a LOT. Take a look at Northrend, almost every Horde soldier was using a gun over a bow.
Scientific advancement and higher average intelligence go hand in hand.
Not necessarily. Humanity just has more leisure time to pursue fields of thought that go beyond "how can I make it through the winter if my crops died?"
It can be argued that the intelligence of the average person hasn't increased at all, they just have the education to better apply that intelligence.
Post by
Behelich
((Did not bother to read the entire thread))
Platypus, if you want to hate those ungodly monstrosities that are the Forsaken, at least do it right. They cannot tire, they do not feel pain, they will fight on disfigured, incinerated, frozen and so on. Compared to that, their suicidal overconfidence they gain from their inability to feel pain is a minor issue. If pitched one against another, unfortunately, a Forsaken has an upper hand against your good Light-fearing human.
As for their numbers, well... I disagree with Adams, the blood elves are not numerous, they have nothing against the Forsaken. Still, at worst the vile abominations are numbering about the same as gnomes or dwarves; only select few have broken free of the Lich King's control. And with every Val'kyr down, their potential numbers decrease dramatically.
Post by
Lordplatypus
Goblin stuff explodes too much.
Thats why they got lowered.
Post by
Skreeran
Goblin stuff explodes too much.
Thats why they got lowered.Eh, but gnome stuff has its own issues.
Blizzard has made Goblins the technological counterpart of Gnomes since they were both introduced in Warcraft 2. See
Goblins versus Gnomes
.
Edit: Note the flavor text on these gnome inventions:
Gnomish Harm Prevention Belt
Gnomish Lightning Generator
Gnomisn Net-o-matic Projector
Gnomish Shrink Ray
Gnomish Universal Remote
The idea is that goblin inventions blow up, but gnomish inventions tend to have more oblique and unpredictable side-effects.
Post by
Lordplatypus
Eh, but gnome stuff has its own issues.
Blizzard has made Goblins the technological counterpart of Gnomes since they were both introduced in Warcraft 2. See Goblins versus Gnomes.
Good point. I concede.
LOL at the lightning one.
EDIT:
Too bad the Holy Light is shared with Dwarves and High Elves eh? As for the architecture comment; I've heard more good things about the High Elf lands then I have about the northern kingdoms; and Stormwind has nothing on Ironforge, Darnassus, the Exodar and Silvermoon.
The humans were the only people ever to actually "Discover" it on their own apart from the Na'aru the Dorfs and Elves learned it from the humans, the Draenei learned it from the Na'aru.
Human buildings tend to be some of the strongest, abit more crude (Think function vs. form) while elven ones are blatantly made by magic. Dwarves are acknowledged as building tougher buildings, yet it takes longer than a human one. Thats what i got.
Post by
morginar
EDIT:
Too bad the Holy Light is shared with Dwarves and High Elves eh? As for the architecture comment; I've heard more good things about the High Elf lands then I have about the northern kingdoms; and Stormwind has nothing on Ironforge, Darnassus, the Exodar and Silvermoon.
The humans were the only people ever to actually "Discover" it on their own apart from the Na'aru the Dorfs and Elves learned it from the humans, the Draenei learned it from the Na'aru.
Priest of elune have exsisted over 10k years...
Trolls also have priesthood in their ancient empire...
Post by
Atik
.... High Elf priests were around LONG before they teamed up with humans. Or should I point you towards the SUNwell?
And Blood Elves got their light from the Naaru, if anyplace. (Absorbing it and bending it to their will)
And the Night Elves get their 'light' from Elune, and have for MILLIONS of years before humans even existed.
Post by
Patty
.... High Elf priests were around LONG before they teamed up with humans. Or should I point you towards the SUNwell?
And Blood Elves got their light from the Naaru, if anyplace. (Absorbing it and bending it to their will)
And the Night Elves get their 'light' from Elune, and have for MILLIONS of years before humans even existed.
Thousands*
Post by
Skreeran
.... High Elf priests were around LONG before they teamed up with humans. Or should I point you towards the SUNwell?
And Blood Elves got their light from the Naaru, if anyplace. (Absorbing it and bending it to their will)
And the Night Elves get their 'light' from Elune, and have for MILLIONS of years before humans even existed.Well, remember, the Blood Elves all used to be High Elves. I doubt they all completely abandoned their religion when they became blood elves. While Blood Knights mainly absorbed power from M'uru, it stands to reason at least a few of them could still channel natural light as well.
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