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Are monks good in pvp
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Post by
Adamsm
You just don't get it do you?
a WW monk can just wait until the other guy pops burst, use touch or karma, and now has effectively
his entire hp's worth in a shield
for a 1.5 second cooldown he just doubled his effective hp. List one other class that can do that. just one.
No he didn't; if the burst damage deals his HP, the shield is blown out and if the attacker has a healer, the Walker is dead...or you know, do the incredibly smart thing
AND STOP BLOODY ATTACKING
, which wastes that ability since it only lasts 6 seconds.
But again, it's only fail Windwalkers who waste Touch of Karma on a dps; if you are going to use it effectively, you hit the healer with it and laugh as the dps kills his heal.
Sorry Platypus, but this isn't a case of the Monk being overpowered, it's the case of the attackers not thinking correctly and realizing that you can't tunnel vision and just go all out...you actually need to plan, since once more freaking time, Windwalkers are incredibly squishy and easy to kill..and I speak from experience there.
Post by
Lordplatypus
They aren't. They're incredibly good at Line of Sighting and escaping, don't give me that prediction crap everyone is different. Stop attacking wastes up to half your burst, i say this again
HALF YOUR BURST
. There's no way to get rid of it, heck even Divine shield has a counter. this? There isn't one.
Post by
Meldoron
Ok... when you burst, what do you do? You, probably, stun him right? Just stun and pop your burst trinket and nothing else, if he doesn't pop nimble brew and touch of karma just to live then you'll knock him so far down that he'll play defensive for the rest of the fight. If he does pop them then so what? Your burst trinket is on a 1 minute cd so by the time it is up again, throw him into a stun and this time go balls-to-the-walls on him. He WILL die. Hell, if he touch of karma's you when you pop everything, just switch target. All your damage will go off and his ability will be wasted.
If you fought another pally, would you pop all your burst when he still has bubble up? No, of course not unless you want to lose. Would you go all out on a rogue who still has cloak and vanish up? No, he'll reset the fight and probably force your bubble from a new initiation. There is something about every class you have had to learn and counter over time; monks are no different. Monks are a pain because of what they have in their kit, but they can easily be countered. If you can't adapt to fight a new class then we can't really help you.
Post by
Lordplatypus
The differnce is simple, Paladins take 5 minutes to recharge Divine shield. Rogues take two minutes to recharge Vanish Mages take 5 minute to recharge Ice block and all of them are worthless if you want to continue doing damage.
Touch of karma is actually a damage increase and a very short cooldown.
Post by
zearamoth
You do realise that the damage that gets reflected back to the person who has Touch of Karma on him/her gets reduced by resi right? It's not that you get 100% of the damage you do right back in your face. Resil reduces it first, meaning that if you have 50% resi or something you will only get 50% of the damage you did. Do note that this actually double dips as your own damage gets reduced by the monk too. let's say both you and the monk have 50% resi (just for the sake of the math). You would deal 100k dmg. It gets reduced to 50k by the resi of the monk. However the monk used Touch of Karma on you meaning that the 50k dmg you did gets reflected back at you. This won't be 50k dmg tough as your own resi will reduce it AGAIN to 25k. So even if you ignore the tactics that others have already posted it aint that bad.
Besides, it's a magic debuff you get, DISPELL IT!
Post by
Adamsm
So just like in your pvp thread; it's more of a "I can't kill them, nerf them now!' then any actual reason to change the ability. Okay then.
For anyone else, Monks are good at PVP but just like any other class, they can be stopped.
Post by
Lordplatypus
Being stopped by two players is still OP. soloing a windwalker is suicide, they always shut down your burst.
Considering both of you play monk, i'm pretty sure it's obivous which of us has vested interests in keeping them FOTM.
It's like frost mage players in 4.3, you can't reason with them, they just want to keep being OP.
Post by
Adamsm
There's nothing OP about a Windwalker...since as we've told you multiple times, they are a squishy class that is easy to kill. If anything, Nerf Paladins; I get my ass handed to me by those damn bastards! Take away all of their skills! NERF NERF NERF!
/roll eyes
The issue is not with the class here. It's with people who don't seem to realize that things change, and they need to change with it, and understand 'oh look, white circle above me head, time to hit dispell or stop attacking' and not expect Blizzard to play the game for them.
Post by
Lordplatypus
You just don't get it do you? Monks are OP. that's a proven fact.
Raise the cooldowns to the norm for those kinds of abilities, 5-6 minutes.
Is that too much to ask considering it's the most mobile class in the game, hits hard, has two of them, i can't even count how many advantages monks have.
Post by
Adamsm
Monks are OP. that's a proven fact.No, they really aren't.
But, this will go no where, so time to end the thread. Think how you want, but remember this when your class gets nerfs and don't come crying to us.
And again to those who do want to try the class: You will die in PVP same as any other class. Monks are not anymore OP then any other class, and as long as you learn how to deal/defend against them, you'll have an enjoyable time.
Post by
Lordplatypus
What, you think paladins need nerfs? seriously?
Paladins are literally bottom tier. Monks are top tier. Get it right.
EDIT: Btw, blizz already nerfed ring of peace in the 5.3 PTR. It's now a 3 second disarm/silence that's affected by DR.
Post by
Meldoron
Paladins are literally bottom tier. Monks are top tier. Get it right.
Shamans would like a word with you. Resto is really the only spec you see from shaman in high rated arenas and rbgs. In raids, enhancement is one of the better melee specs if he/she is REALLY well geared, otherwise, we fall flat. Elemental and resto are both pretty underwhelming in heroic progression.
Meanwhile, paladins are THE most represented class right now in both pve and pvp. I wonder why that is? Holy is on par with disc priest at the top of the ladder in pve. Prot is doing great in raids; in fact, the most represented tank, right above blood dk. Rets have very good dps in all tiers of gear and very dependable. The highest rated player in pvp is a holy pally and rets are amazing in cleave teams.
Monks are about middle of the pack, a little closer to the bottom. Mistweaver is the spec that is most used in both pve and pvp. WW's aoe needs to be fixed since it doesn't seem to cap properly like other dps which is the only reason they even show up on top of some fights with 1 million dps mostly using spinning crane kick. Other than that, their damage isn't all that great single target. I wouldn't be surprised if we start seeing more brewmasters in raiding since they are nice to heal because of stagger and I, personally, think they are fun to play.
You can check World of Logs or World of Graphs if you want. I'm getting tired of attempting to explain things to you. I can't even call it debating since you have nothing to back up anything you say. Go makes threads on mmo-champion and the official forums so that we can all laugh on three different sites because you really are already wasting your time here.
Post by
Lordplatypus
Oh look a pver. that's cute.
Btw, the highest rated WW is 2560 the highest rated Ret is 2500.
Representation of paladins has been more or less middling the entire time, that's normal, we're never notable enough to be useful.
Windwalkers are experiencing a spike as more and more players realize just how FOTM they are.
Ret's in a slump, most paladin players tend to be people who cling to their class. We've been nerfed so much it doesn't even suprise use anymore.
Post by
Meldoron
Well, I do play the game. I, mostly, focus on pvp but I do raid occasionally when my work schedule doesn't collide with raid times. Besides, what else am I going to do as enhance? Getting globaled during a stun isn't very appealing to me so I leave my destro lock and arcane mage to the pvp scene.
At least I know I'm just feeding a troll now, though. Thanks for the heads up.
Post by
Lordplatypus
Wait what? You think i'm a troll?
Removed. Just read the freaking stats will ya? everything points towards a surge of more WW monks, and monks and general while Ret has been lowering from the last point in the chart constantly.(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##ElhonnaDS##DELIM##You've been warned repeatedly about insulting other players. Check your e-mail.
Post by
zearamoth
http://www.crossladder.com/arena/stats/
Check the "classes tab" (second row from the top). Paladins are second or third in most representation in all brackets while Monks are the LEAST represented classes in all brackets except for 2v2, where they are second last.
Your point was?
EDIT: Also check the setup tab (top). None of the most represented tabs include monks while ALMOST 50% of the setups includes a pala of any spec.
Post by
Lordplatypus
If your wondering, monk is the only class aside from priest where a DPS spec is almost as common as a healing one.
it's 2:1 on paladins 3:1 on shamans 3:2 on druids monks are nearly 1:1.
If MW (Which nearly everyone agrees is OP due to their survivability and that invul-post-stun thing) has nearly the same amount of monks as WW would that not mean WW has the same performance as MW?
Furthermore, monk is a new class, and unlike death knight, requires a full 1-90 grind, most people wouldn't be interested in it, making it more unpopular than other classes.
The monk population is
half
that of the paladin one.
EDIT: On another note,
this here
race/faction graph shows the factions as "All" and "Alliance"
Post by
zearamoth
From the site you linked:
http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/stats-classesrepartition-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0.html
Monks (all specs) less represented than all pala specs.
besides, WW is an extreme fun spec to play with (my opinion tough, I assume quite some people may agree). Doesn't that quite explain the popularity of it compared to MW?
But this discussion is the same as trying to break a brick wall with your bare head. You are to stubborn to see that monks (WW expecially) are perfectly fine and could actually use some (buff) tweaks here and there to compete with all the other classes.
Post by
Adamsm
What, you think paladins need nerfs? seriously?
Paladins are literally bottom tier. Monks are top tier. Get it right.
EDIT: Btw, blizz already nerfed ring of peace in the 5.3 PTR. It's now a 3 second disarm/silence that's affected by DR.
No, I was just using your own logic against you; a class kills you, so obviously it needs a nerf so that you can then 'kill' it; however, there are lots of people killing Windwalker monks out there(I should know, I watch myself get killed in PVP quite a bit), so apparently not everyone thinks they need a nerf.
And I know about the Ring of Peace nerf; I saw the same thing you did....however, I'm not complaining about it; if it was needed, so be it. But there isn't a need to nerf Touch of Karma, since it's incredibly easy to get around, just by playing smart and not trying to bull rush through.
Post by
Lordplatypus
Monks need to have their mobility toned way down and their damage also dropped if they are supposed to keep this new ability. It's a ability that completely dominates entire class toolkits. Right now monks basically have superior versions of most every other classe's abilities all at once.
Windwalker needs to be nerfed far harder than just that, they already have a free trinket, a improved version of solarbeam, an improved version of divine shield, an improved version of charge and an improved version of most every other major class ability.
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