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Hugo Chávez and Venezuela.
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Post by
Kristopher
With the death of the President of Venezuela, Hugo Chávez, whose presence was viewed with mixed emotions by the people of Venezuela, it looks like the country is going to see some change. I know most of what I know about the country, and its condition, from my good friend
Rankkor
, and I hope he wants to share more, having first hand experience with the situation. I believe I have his permission to bug him about the matter. Others are more than welcome to participate, too!
I hope this thread serves as a good place to discuss the events of the former President, as well as what is, might, and will happen in the country, with him gone.
To get this discussion rolling, a suggested topic could be who is going to take his place, and what that means for Venezuela, and those in relationships with the country.
Post by
Rankkor
Ok for that first question, here's the current answer.
The opposition to chavez in Venezuela is not unified, sadly political corruption isn't exclusive to the Red side, and more than one is greedy enough to want the chair. For quite some time his biggest political rival was the head candidate of the UNT party (Un Nuevo Tiempo, or A New Time) Manuel Rosales, but Chavez was able to do a pretty successful discrediting campaign against him, including accusations of mismanagement of public funds (he was the Governor of the state I live, the state of Zulia) and corruption, and in order to avoid jail time, he had to flee the country.
His current number 1 rival was
Henrique Capriles Radonski
main candidate of another opposition party Primero Justicia (Justice First)
With chavez gone, the current political situation of Venezuela is this: Vice-President Nicolas Maduro, leads the country for the time being. He has been doing that for some time, Chavez had been in a pretty severe condition since december, and the vice president was more or less doing everything while chavez kept going from surgery to treatment over and over. After 30 days (on April 6th) the National Assembly will announce a date for new presidential elections, since even though Chavez died after having won the elections, he was unable to be officially sworn in on January due to his health.
Most of the Opposition (myself included of course) heavily criticized him for being dishonest about his health, he very smugly bragged about having defeated cancer earlier in 2012, and that he was perfectly fit to run the country on the october elections. This was obviously a lie, in fact, its highly rumored that he had been brain dead, or at least not in the full use of his faculties since mid february. (Highly accentuated by his complete lack of public appearance on any form of media since December. This is a man driven by ego, and not a day goes by that he doesn't do a public broadcast on TV, so him not doing that was a clear indicator that he was in critical condition)
On April 6th, we're gonna know the new date for presidential elections, and any political party and candidate will be allowed to run it. For the Opposition, Capriles is set to represent us, but its not clear yet who's representing the communist party, from what I've heard (this is unofficial, I could be wrong about it) its either Diosdado Cabello, current head of the National Assembly, or Chavez's own brother, Adan Chavez.
Post by
Kristopher
From the way you described it before, in the Bin, you made it out to be that just having a somewhat fair election was a step forward for the country. How do you think Capriles will be for it, should he get elected?
Post by
Rankkor
From the way you described it before, in the Bin, you made it out to be that just having a somewhat fair election was a step forward for the country. How do you think Capriles will be for it, should he get elected?
No clue. To be honest I gave up political activism when I got shot and locked up in Sabaneta. I've become too disillusioned with venezuelan politics to care, all I want is to get out. What I know, is that right now, any change is welcome, whether that change will be an improvement, or just more of the same, remains to be seen.
Main reason I'm disillusioned is that prior to Chavez we had another ruthless leader, Carlos Andres Perez, corrupt, murderer, madman, and worse. Chavez led a revolution, a coup to remove him from power, and once that happened, I recall my dad saying "there's no way anyone could be worse than Perez" and "Chavez will improve things around here".
Look at the result. I'm skeptical of opening myself for such disappointment again, so I'd rather assume that Capriles will be more of the same, and then be gladly surprised if he isn't.
What I can say is that he's not a left-winger, no socialism, no communism, so that's a step up. And his followers are not as crazy.
Post by
Jubilee
As a completely hypothetical question, Ranky, would you support American military intervention in Venezuela, a la Iraq, if the current sort of regime were to remain into the near future? Not that I think that is going to happen, but I'm interested from your inside perspective whether you think drastic action like that would help.
Post by
Rankkor
As a completely hypothetical question, Ranky, would you support American military intervention in Venezuela, a la Iraq, if the current sort of regime were to remain into the near future? Not that I think that is going to happen, but
I'm interested from your inside perspective whether you think drastic action like that would help
.
It would not.
Collateral damage would be too high, civilian casualties would skyrocket. Look at what happened in Chile when the US intervened to remove Allende, did the situation improved for chilenans? nope, Pinochet rose to power.
Look at Iraq today, has it seen peace? nope, still a warzone. I'm not saying the situation hasn't improved, but considering the many innocent lives that were lost in its occupation one would think they'd at least have peace. But no, still a warzone, so thousands died for pretty much nothing. A barely noticeable improvement.
An outsider intervention where would do so to secure THEIR interests, not ours, as long as THEIR interests are safe, they're not gonna give a crap to what happens to the population (as long as it doesn't affects said interests)
Its been shown time and again that outside intervention often makes a problem worse. Some cases see a different outcome (read: Japan) but to reach that outcome, THOUSANDS must die. And I'm not willing to sacrifice myself or my family for it. Sounds selfish I know, but that's the way it is.
Post by
Kristopher
As a completely hypothetical question, Ranky, would you support American military intervention in Venezuela, a la Iraq, if the current sort of regime were to remain into the near future? Not that I think that is going to happen, but I'm interested from your inside perspective whether you think drastic action like that would help.
It would end badly. It would be somewhat similar to
this
. I recommend watching that movie, it gives a brutal insight into what the US used to do/still does when the get involved in situations like this. Basically, we should keep our noses out of things...
Post by
MyTie
As a completely hypothetical question, Ranky, would you support American military intervention in Venezuela, a la Iraq, if the current sort of regime were to remain into the near future? Not that I think that is going to happen, but I'm interested from your inside perspective whether you think drastic action like that would help.
It would end badly. It would be somewhat similar to
this
. I recommend watching that movie, it gives a brutal insight into what the US used to do/still does when the get involved in situations like this. Basically, we should keep our noses out of things...
I think there is quite a bit of ground between "noses out of things" and "unilateral military action". The answer is likely somewhere between the two. Unfortunately, we have leaders who are willing to angrily chastise the regime, or shower praise it. Neither of those is going to really help the situation.
Post by
Jubilee
Well now, I see what you mean about a cult personality.
Post by
Rankkor
Well now, I see what you mean about a cult personality.
That's just scratching the surface. Get this hun,
THEY WANNA EMBALM HIS BODY AND PUT HIM UP ON DISPLAY ON A MUSSEUM SO PEOPLE CAN PRAY TO HIM!
I swear to god I wish I was making this crap up.
Post by
Kristopher
Well now, I see what you mean about a cult personality.
That's just scratching the surface. Get this hun,
THEY WANNA EMBALM HIS BODY AND PUT HIM UP ON DISPLAY ON A MUSSEUM SO PEOPLE CAN PRAY TO HIM!
I swear to god I wish I was making this crap up.
Sounds what they did to Lenin and Stalin, if I remember correctly.
Also, Rank, mind if I ask you some of those personal questions? I have school tomorrow and my teacher wanted to know a few things.
Not sure if you'll be able to answer yes or no, before I go to bed, but if you're willing, here are some of the questions. Sorry if you've answered them before, as I know you have definitely answered some, but my memory regarding them is a little hazy.
1) What are the circumstances regarding your arrest, and what were the prisons like?
2) What is your profession? (I believe she wants this one answered as it can give us the correct perspective of your experiences)
Aaand I've forgotten most of the questions already... there might be more later. This one is somewhat less relevant.
3) What are some of the heavily overpriced things in Venezuela? I recall you saying videogames, but are there other, just as absurd, things?
Post by
Rankkor
Well now, I see what you mean about a cult personality.
That's just scratching the surface. Get this hun,
THEY WANNA EMBALM HIS BODY AND PUT HIM UP ON DISPLAY ON A MUSSEUM SO PEOPLE CAN PRAY TO HIM!
I swear to god I wish I was making this crap up.
Sounds what they did to Lenin and Stalin, if I remember correctly.
And also both Kims (father and son) on North Korea. It just goes to show the degree of idolatry that they have for him, and yet they still have the balls to deny that they have a cult of personality built around him.
Also, Rank, mind if I ask you some of those personal questions? I have school tomorrow and my teacher wanted to know a few things.
sure.
Not sure if you'll be able to answer yes or no, before I go to bed, but if you're willing, here are some of the questions.
Depends on the question. There are some (very few) things I'd rather not talk about, but about 95% is good.
Sorry if you've answered them before, as I know you have definitely answered some, but my memory regarding them is a little hazy.
No problems bro'.
1) What are the circumstances regarding your arrest?
its a bit of a long story, the gist of it is that me and my family (mom, dad, and my little brother) were heavily invested in political activism, we were all very active members of the Accion Democratica political party and on 2002, we were out in the streets on a political march that escalated to the point of insanity.
The more extremist members of the left-wingers (the so-called "Bolivarian Circles") opened fire on the crowd, and a MASSIVE quasi-region-wide riot started. The president sicced the cops, army, and national guard on us, and several of them used live rounds. On the chaos, once the tear gas started flowing, me and my family got separated. My chief concern was my mom, cuz my dad is an old bull, he's not gonna go down without a fight, and neither will my brother, but my mom is more fragile.
So among the tear gas, and the shooting, and the fighting I tried to find her, and I was able to locate her because I heard her scream, guiding myself to her via the screams, I saw something that made me snap. I saw a fully riot-geared national guard beating the crap out of my mom with a baton. She was no longer screaming, or moving, and was bleeding profusely from the head. She was still alive, but I didn't knew that, at the time, I honest-to-god swear she was dead, and the guy just continued to beat her, laughing while doing so.
I just snapped bro', never before, or since, have I ever gotten so angry, and I pray to god every night that I never get that angry again. I honestly don't remember much of what happened later, I mean everything went red, and the following events are mostly a blur to me, according to my brother who saw the whole thing as he heard mom screaming too, I just flew into a rage, grabbed a nearby brick, and just pounced the guy and started beating the living s*** out of him with the brick. I could had killed him if he weren't using his helmet, which I actually cracked open. I smashed him on the head over and over, his 2 buddies tried to get me off him, but couldn't subdue me, eventually they shot me twice in the leg to force me to let go of the brick, and then tazed me. They also beated me into unconsciousness.
my brother tried to help me, and he also got a massive beating for his trouble. My dad was detained long before he could find me, my mom, or my brother.
My mom survived (barely) the guard survived (massive brain damage, and his face no longer looked like a face, but he should count his blessings just for being able to breathe) and I survived, the doctors did a bare-bones patchwork on my leg, and a few months later, I was on trial, along with several others, probably hundreds, if not thousands, the DA wanted to give me 20 years for attempted murder against a national guard.
But I had a fairy godmother. My actual Godmother actually :P she is a lawyer and a BADASS lawyer at that. She made a defense so good, so brilliant, she just tore down the entire case of the DA, and managed to get the judge to sympathize with my case. He sentenced me to 5 years of jail, and under the condition that if I was able to spend 3 years with good behavior, I'd be able to serve 2 of those years under house arrest with an ankle bracelet.
My lawyer eventually was able to bring it down to 4 years, of which I served 2 on the Federal Prison of La Sabaneta (Take it from me, ONE OF THE WORST PRISONS IN THE WORLD) and 2 under house arrest.
and what were the prisons like
Terrible. The prison system isn't really good here, but La Sabaneta is a monster unique on its own. Its currently ranked as number 3 on the top 10 worse prisons in the world. The only prisons in this planet that are worse than Sabaneta, are one in North Korea, and one in Somalia.
I could spend days, probably weeks describing them to you, and it would still not convey the absolute horror that Sabaneta is like. I saw some sh*t in there that no man should ever have to see, and had to endure unspekable horrors in the name of survival. If you've ever seen the TV Show "Prison Break", on the third season, the protagonists are in a prison called Sona, well, Sabaneta is pretty much Sona in all but name. Yes, that bad.
One of the reasons its so bad is that the inside of the prison is a "No Man's Land". Inmates are tossed in there, left to their own devices, with no control at all by anyone. The guards are on the walls and their only job is to ensure nobody gets out, and nobody unauthorized get in. What the prisoners actually do inside, they don't care. So take the most dangerous men in the country, toss them in a pit with no electricity, no plumbing, ZERO forms of entertainment, no sports, no reading, no TV, and absolutely no authority to tell them what to do.
The end result is like Lord of the Flies but with adults instead of children. And yes its as horrible as it sounds. The sheer degree of barbarism, brutality or violence that goes on in there can't really be put into words. To hammer a point, the leader of the main gang in there, had a necklace, made of human fingers. One for each man he had killed while in there.
Here are some depressing statistics of Sabaneta: It houses from 12.000 to 17.000 prisoners, in a dilapidated building that was made for 4.000. Out of all the current inmates, well over 60% are still awaiting their trial. They love to do that, they toss you in there, and then delay your trial as much as possible, to increase the chances that you get killed in there. Out of all the men who enter Sabaneta, more than half will die in there, 20% by suicide, and the rest that manage to get out, are so utterly broken by what they live in there, they never truly re-adapt to civilized society. I was able to do so because I am incredibly blessed to have so many who loved me. I had the unwavering support of my family, of a church that took me in their arms and helped me move past that place, and the endless love of a woman who would become my wife. Not everyone gets this lucky.
Roughly 200 prisoners die in sabaneta per year on average. When I was in there, on a good week, we'd have 1 dead. On a really bad week, we'd have one dead every 8 hours. There was not a single day without a fight, with absolutely no means of entertainment, Violence is more of a way of communication rather than a worse-case scenario, and society in there, is borderline feral.
All of this was back when I was in there, I've heard that it has changed in the following years, but it still retains its number 3 place as one of the worst prisons in the world. its used as the probervial boogieman, to scare the population into obedience, or they just toss you in there and hope you die. That's waht the PCV wanted to happen to me, they threw me in there, expecting me to die, it was partly my own stubbornness to refuse to let them win that kept me alive.
I know no prison is a nice place, people go to jail to suffer, but Sabaneta is a place so horrible, it seriously makes every prison on the rest of the country (and the entire american continent) look like a Hilton Hotel by comparison. A season in San Quentin is like a vacation in hawaii compared to a single week in Sabaneta.
2) What is your profession? (I believe she wants this one answered as it can give us the correct perspective of your experiences)
Dunno what that has to do with anything, but back then I was unemployed, I had become a guard at a cookie factory since my early teens, and was getting a degree in history when this whole mess happened. After I got out, I graduated as an economist and worked at a bank for a few years, but I recently left that bank to pursue my dream of being a Chef. Currently ,I'm studying to become an international Chef, and soon will be working as a Junior Grade instructor on the Concasse International Cuisine Institute of Maracaibo.
3) What are some of the heavily overpriced things in Venezuela? I recall you saying videogames, but are there other, just as absurd, things?
Everything that isn't related to Oil.
Videogames, movies, music, most types of food that aren't the most basic stuff, (So things like Cheeze Wiz, imported sausages, rarer meat cuts, and other fine meals) but by far and wide the most expensive thing in here is Cars and Property.
To put this in perspective, the average venezuelan will make about 2.400.000 Bolivares per month. A car costs at least 170.000.000 Bolivares, An apartment costs 400.000.000 Bolivares, and a medium-sized house, can cost up to a billion bolivares. My grandma's house is currently prized for 2.5 billion bolivares.
Post by
gnomerdon
r.i.p. to the persident. the country is definitely going to change. hopefully for the better.
on the important matter at hand, rankorr, can u make a chef thread where we ask questions on foods, cooking, healthy foods, etc etc?
Post by
Magician22773
To put this in perspective, the average venezuelan will make about 2.400.000 Bolivares per month. A car costs at least 170.000.000 Bolivares, An apartment costs 400.000.000 Bolivares, and a medium-sized house, can cost up to a billion bolivares. My grandma's house is currently prized for 2.5 billion bolivares.
Do you guys have like 1 million Bolivares bills or something? Or would you need a dump truck to purchase a house with cash?
And, is the Bolivar the only form of currency? (as in, no coins, or "partial" Bolivares?).......I know the economy there is wacked...but I cant understand the use of such huge numbers to convey currency. I don't see why you would not just make every Bolivar (I assume that is the singular) worth 1000 Bolivares, to make currency easier to convey. (In American terms, this seems like using pennies as the only form of currency,,,,but even worse. If you convert an decent average US wage...$4000 a month to pennies, you still only have 400,000, well below 2.4 million)
Post by
Squishalot
Do you guys have like 1 million Bolivares bills or something? Or would you need a dump truck to purchase a house with cash?
I'd imagine they'd pay with a bank cheque or other form of bank transfer, just like every other country in the world. You wouldn't buy a Manhattan penthouse $100 notes either.
Also, they're implementing a 1000:1
bolivar fuerte
to deal with exactly what you're describing.
Post by
Thror
Apparently, some local source of info for conspiracy enthusiasts has written an article about Chavez or something, because a bunch of people that I considered to be kinda wacky in relation with the conspiracies, started posting about Chavez, generally things that praise him and jabs at the "media" not showing us how people in Venezuela are super sad about his death and stuff. What is worse, a few of those wackos I actually care about, so I will try to inform them a bit.
Rank, mind if I tell your story to a few people?
Post by
Rankkor
Do you guys have like 1 million Bolivares bills or something? Or would you need a dump truck to purchase a house with cash?
I'd imagine they'd pay with a bank cheque or other form of bank transfer, just like every other country in the world. You wouldn't buy a Manhattan penthouse $100 notes either.
That is correct, to purchase big stuff you don't pay cash, you either do a bank transference via debit card, or checks, or other forms. Carrying that much money with you is dangerous.
Also, they're implementing a 1000:1
bolivar fuerte
to deal with exactly what you're describing.
They already did that a couple of years ago, the irony is that they called it "Bolivar Fuerte" (Strong Bolivar) when the very reason we even had to implement it is because our currency has never been more worthless. So "Fuerte" my ass. This is why I don't refer to the new currency, and still talk about the old one, a lot of venezuelans do.
As for magician's question regarding our bills, it goes like this:
As far as coins go, we have 5 cent coins (Equivalent of 50 Old bolivares) 10 Cents (100 old bolivares) 25 cents (250 old bolivares) 50 cents (500 old bolivares) and 1 bolivar (1000 old bolivares)
As for bills, our bills are: 2 Bolivares (2000 old bolivares) 5 (5000 old bolivares) 10 (10000 old bolivares) 20 (20000 old bolivares) 50 (50000 old bolivares) and the highest bill is of 100 (100.000 old bolivares)
Apparently, some local source of info for conspiracy enthusiasts has written an article about Chavez or something, because a bunch of people that I considered to be kinda wacky in relation with the conspiracies, started posting about Chavez, generally things that praise him and jabs at the "media" not showing us how people in Venezuela are super sad about his death and stuff. What is worse, a few of those wackos I actually care about, so I will try to inform them a bit.
Rank, mind if I tell your story to a few people?
by all means. go on.
Like I said, several years ago, my answer would had been no, as my way to cope with what I lived through in Sabaneta, was simple denial, I didn't wanted to talk about it, didn't wanted to think about it, I just wanted to pretend it never happened, or that it happened to someone else, not me. The pastor of my church however, as well as my wife, encouraged me otherwise, as repressing bad memories isn't healthy.
After some years of therapy, I was able to accept what happened, and now I have no problem telling my story. I do keep a few details hidden, as they're kinda gruesome, and not everyone would like to hear them. The sort of barbarism that goes inside Sabaneta really has no words to be described. Even if 5 years ago they improved the place with a shiny new coat of pain and an actual electrical system, its still the same hellhole it was 10 years ago.
As for what the media tells you, its the exact same thing as North Korea bro', judging by their shiny parades, their propaganda, and their boasting, you'd think that's one of the best places to live, until you actually live there, and find out just how fake their performance is. The real difference is that the North Koreans aint fooling anyone, whereas Chavez is fooled almost everyone.
Living here for a couple of years as a medium-wage citizen is all it takes to see just how broken this "Socialist Paradise" really is.
Post by
Magician22773
Do you guys have like 1 million Bolivares bills or something? Or would you need a dump truck to purchase a house with cash?
I'd imagine they'd pay with a bank cheque or other form of bank transfer, just like every other country in the world.
You wouldn't buy a Manhattan penthouse $100 notes either.
Also, they're implementing a 1000:1
bolivar fuerte
to deal with exactly what you're describing.
You actually might be surprised.
Yes, the by far most common method for large purchases is a check, or bank transfer. But more people than you think make even large purchases with cash...actual $100 bill cash.
Its not nearly as common with houses, but when buying a car, especially a used car from an individual, it is even recommended that you purchase with cash. It is a very powerful bargaining tool. When I bought my last truck, I used that bargaining power to save $1500.
The truck was listed for $4500. I showed up, I test drove it, checked it out, then I laid out $3000, in cash, on the hood. I told the guy that was my best offer, and that I was prepared to walk if that would not buy it. They guy really did not want to accept that much off the price, but the appeal of $3000 in cash, right there in front of him, was just too much. He kept saying no, and counter-offering, but he also kept looking at the money before each counter. At $3500, I started to pick up the money, and he immediately said "now wait a minute"...I just told him I had other trucks to look at, and he paused, and handed me the title...and scooped up the bills.
I have no doubt at all that had I been standing there, with just a checkbook in my hand, that deal would not have happened.
Post by
Squishalot
Yeah, 4.5k cash is one thing, 4.5m house is another though. I wouldn't want to be carrying that much cash down the street with me!
That, and you start hitting all the anti-money laundering laws once you get up past the 10k mark. Basically, I would never consider paying for something that was more than about 10k in pure cash.
Edit: More on topic - Rank - how safe is it over there? As in, walking around the streets, do you feel safe? If you were carrying a decent sum of cash on you, would that cause serious issues?(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##Squishalot##DELIM##
Post by
Magician22773
If you were carrying a decent sum of cash on you, would that cause serious issues?
Hell, the wheelbarrow that you were carrying it in would be a dead giveaway for thieves!
Yeah, 4.5k cash is one thing, 4.5m house is another though.
Yeah, ya hit the 4.5m mark, and it would get a little tricky.
The most cash I ever held was $100,000 for about 24 hours.
At one point, when construction was booming, and my business was booming right along with it, I had 3 major jobs all close within a few days of each other. After depositing the checks, and covering all immediate business expenses, I had about $130k still in the bank.
For no other reason than "because I could", I walked into my bank, and filled out a deposit slip for $100,000. I was honestly expecting it to be a huge deal...but it really wasn't. I had to present an extra form of ID, and I had to speak with the bank manager. I was surprised that not once was I ever asked "what do you want this cash for". I had to sign 1 form, and in about 15 minutes, a guard brought me $100k in cash, wrapped up in $10k stacks.
The next day, I brought it back to the same bank. I was kinda worried they would be pissed for going through all the trouble, but they weren't. In fact, after telling the manager why I did it...she kinda laughed and said I wasn't the first person to do that.
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