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Usage of a specific racial slur.
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Post by
Patty
Well Mr Freeman says "Black history is American history". I think he's in favour of people understanding the full history including all the unpleasant bits.
As for not talking about it not being a good solution, you may be right, I don't know. Racism is an issue where I live but it's an entirely different kind of thing to what I see in American media so I don't feel like I'm in a position to make a judgement on it - certainly no more than Morgan Freeman. In fact, almost everybody in this thread is not American I think which is weird for Wowhead. However, I don't think colour-blindness is required. I can be well aware that my Wife's eyes are greyish-green without her being my grey-ish green-eyed wife. We can, surely see peoples' skin colour without classifying them.
Nathanyal, that was Tush's main question and we talked about it on the first page. Aside from not respecting that position do you have anything to say about the explanations given on the previous page? Personally I do not see it as idiotic in the slightest.
Certainly, but then the only reason there's a black history month is because the other 11 months is white history, basically. Yet white people were still complaining about it. Obviously there should be equal representation of racial and ethnic history, but that's not to say that there actually
is
right now - and the only way that stuff gets covered right now is by actually designating a month for it. It's the same as being colour blind, like Elura said earlier. Don't pretend everyone is in an equal position when they're really not.
Post by
asakawa
I just think it's strange when one person is offended by a name moreso than the person that's being called that name.
I'm probably being dumb but I'm not understanding that.
what do you think of the analogies used in the thread by Thror or myself. Do they not help it make sense?
Don't pretend everyone is in an equal position when they're really not.
Well, I think there's an argument to be made that acting as if what you want to be the case already is can help it come to be but I don't think that opposing Black History Month precludes people getting a better education of American history with proper emphasis given to the role of those with black skin. I'm fairly sure that Morgan Freeman wants better education but doesn't see the creation of a "Month" to be a positive step towards that goal. Him opposing it on TV like that brought the idea to the public consciousness in a way it might not have done otherwise.(##RESPBREAK##)16##DELIM##asakawa##DELIM##
Post by
Nathanyal
They do make sense, but what I mean is that someone else will be more offended by a name them by the person being called that name.
Lets say someone called me a fatass, and some skinny person went up in arms saying its more polite to be called "big boned" or "obese". I would just be "meh, I am a fatass. So what?"
Do you see what I mean?
Post by
Patty
There's a difference between acting like a decent human being (ie. not treating people differently according to race, creed etc) and being colorblind, which in this instance is more regarding the "well race doesn't matter to me, so it can't be a problem" mentality. That and most of the criticisms you would see of BHM aren't anything to do with Morgan Freeman's school of thought (which I agree with, to an extent, but don't think that getting rid of it currently is a step in the right direction), it's more "well why should
they
get a month, where's white history month!". Really, if you've seen some of the idiocy going around on social media during BHM, you'll know what kind of things I'm referring to. :P
It's basically the same deal as having an International Women's Day (and why a men's day isn't needed): it's celebrating the history, achievements and also educating about a group of people who have been marginalised by society, and that still are (although, obviously not to the same scale).
Edit: Nath, it's more the fact that race, gender, ability, sexuality, body shape etc are actually considered things that somebody else can use as a platform to degrade you that is the problem. It's not all about being "offended".
Post by
240140
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
asakawa
@Nathanyal, I see. But we're having a discussion here where there are potentially no participants who are directly affected. In my case I'm not only white skinned but from a different country (doubly removed). There are still issues we can discuss and have opinions about that use this generally known and understood example as the starting point. We're talking about how people within a society should handle words with a history of abuse and atrocity.
A useful way to think of it may be that when a word is used by the powerful majority to insult and abuse the powerless minority, that will only ever change if the powerful majority also stand with the minority to say that it is wrong. So (and I'm talking way outside my knowledge here so forgive me if I'm getting stuff wrong) the emancipation proclamation was written by a powerful white person.
So, being offended on behalf of someone else isn't necessarily an unnecessary or ridiculous thing. It can be very important.(##RESPBREAK##)16##DELIM##asakawa##DELIM##
Post by
MyTie
@OP
It is racist.
It is socially accepted for a person of one skin color to do something, but not accepted for a person of the other skin color to do that same thing. That is, by definition, racial discrimination.
Sure, there is a quite a bit of rational in it, but it is still racist. Further, I find it racist when a black person calls another black person the N word. I find it racist against me, as a white person. They are reinforcing the social norm that "we can do this, but you can't". It's a way of excluding white people. If the white race socially accepted a word we could say to each other, but we would threaten, intimidate, or even use violence if any black person dared to use it, that would be terrible. I don't accept it in return, especially justified by something as silly as "righting a wrong committed before I was born, by someone who wasn't me, to someone who isn't alive anymore". I don't understand how someone being racist to me is justified by someone being racist before either of us was born. That's so stupid. Can I then teach my children to be racist, since someone was racist against me? Is this justified?
The hypocrisy is palpable.
Post by
240140
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Nathanyal
A useful way to think of it may be that when a word is used by the powerful majority to insult and abuse the powerless minority, that will only ever change if the powerful majority also stand with the minority to say that it is wrong. So (and I'm talking way outside my knowledge here so forgive me if I'm getting stuff wrong) the emancipation proclamation was written by a powerful white person.
But the problem is that the powerful majority has become politically correct now and only a powerful minority use the word as a slur. Whereas the powerless minority is still using the word, and only get mad when the powerful minority use the word.
And they're not that powerless as you make them out to be.
Post by
asakawa
If it's being used as a slur then why wouldn't everybody be annoyed at that?
Post by
240140
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MyTie
systematic racism against white people is impossibleI'm not sure what "system" we are talking about, but it is possible. I don't know which is "more oppressed", but when colleges base admissions on the color of skin, that is a system based on racism. Your
emotions
may tell you that black people are still oppressed and therefore all should be done to end racism against them, and I'd agree with you. However,
logic
should tell you that it is still possible for a system to make decisions against white people based on the color of their skin. To say that is impossible is incomprehensible to me. In fact, in parts of the world where whites are the minority, they experience brutal violence, not only socially, but systematically from their governments. Seriously.
Take a look
. I know it's more prominent in Western society to see racism against blacks, to tell me that it is impossible for society to be racist against me because I'm white, IS RACIST.
Also mytie you might feel discriminated that you're not allowed to use a word that an opressed group of people are reclaiming, but in no way is that racism.So, I'm not allowed to do something, based on the color of my skin. Your claim is that isn't racist? I understand that correctly?Your post is incredibly offensive to meWhich part? The part where I said me not being allowed to do something based on the color of my skin is racist?I can't wrap my mind around why this is an issue. I completely see Asakawas point of words being so powerful and how they shouldn't. But since they ARE powerful, how can you not see how this works? ^&*!@# was used by black people aaaaages ago, and then white people took it and used it in a very bad way, and now black people are RECLAIMING it to make it what it was long ago TO THEM, but when white people use it they're overstepping their privilege since they were the ones who took it and changed it to a slur. And they are still powerless in a lot of points of society. Specially black women.
People did stuff before I was born. Some people experience racism today. None of any of that has to do with me. Therefore, I am not allowed to use a word, based on the color of my skin. This isn't racism, because it is impossible to be racist against me, because I'm white.
/boggle
Post by
240140
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MyTie
Responding to someone differently based on category (
discrimination
) of race (
racism
) is BY DEFINITION racial discrimination. Determining that I may or may not do something (use the N word) based on my race is BY DEFINITION racial discrimination. Determining that I may or may not do something (complain about racism) based on my race is BY DEFINITION racial discrimination. This cannot be justified in any way. This cannot be justified by explaining history. This cannot be justified by far off people being discriminate against. This cannot be justified. To look at my skin color and, based on that, say "you may not do X", is racist, and it is discrimination. When the system of society looks at my skin color (white), and says you may not do something (use the N word), that is BY DEFINITION racial discrimination by a system.
Through this discussion, I have continually advocated that I would end discrimination, against blacks, but decried racism against whites, which does exist. I den't feel like a victim. I don't think I am a victim. What I'm really arguing against here is hypocrisy, so ingrained in our social fabric that people are nearly blind to it, and will defend it with venom. You people want to end racial discrimination? Act like it. Stop justifying one form of it, or pretending that something that is racial discrimination isn't racial discrimination, especially under the rational that it is ok to do to some people based on their skin color.
Post by
asakawa
You people want to end racial discrimination?
Who you callin' "
you people
"?!
;P
Seriously though, Take a look at what we're actually talking about here. There's no law that white people can't use the word so we're just talking about the general societal agreement that the word in question is an insult.
Now, if there's a group of people who choose not to see it as an insult amongst themselves then why is that any business of yours or mine or Tush's? Why would we want to be able to call someone by that word and have them treat us as friends. It is, after all, an insult and only becomes something else through a shared experience.
If Freemasons merrily called each other "dogbreath" but got as offended as anyone else would if they were called that by someone outside their group then would we see this as a terrible injustice?
This isn't a race thing, it's just a culture thing. There's a section of young black culture in America that uses the word freely amongst themselves but that is not the same thing as "all black people use the word" or "it's okay for black people to say it". Looking at it from that angle the accusation is racist.
Post by
Jubilee
Another example is how within a small circle of my girlfriends we tend to throw the word B***h around a bit. However if a guy were to come up and call us that, we'd be less than flattered.
Post by
MyTie
Another example is how within a small circle of my girlfriends we tend to throw the word B***h around a bit. However if a guy were to come up and call us that, we'd be less than flattered.
I think the problem is that words are used in a derogatory way. That is wrong. So, let's agree on that. If I were to make up a word "Lysock" (serous that was off the top of my head), and I were to use that as a way of insulting anyone I thought I was better than, then that would be wrong, not the word itself.
I had this great grandfather who remembered when he was a kid, he had this black nanny, and he used to refer to her in stories (she was long dead), as his "^&*!@# Nanny". That's what she was to him, and when she was helping raise him, that's what she told him to call her. My great grandpa would use the "N" word very casually, but to him it simply wasn't derogatory to the black race. He would say that he went down to the store and bought some milk from "oh whats his name, the *!@#$% boy there", and I would be like "Tyrone" and then he'd tell me about the conversation he had with the kid, and how hilarious he thought he was. Now, was there something wrong with my great grandfather using the "N" word, simply because he was a white guy? I contend there wasn't. There are plenty of people to be genuinely incensed at, because they act like genuine asses. Let's be pissed at them. Let's not be pissed at word usage, and place social limitations based on race.
Once, when I was in the Air Force, I was having lunch with my friend, and they served chicken. They burned it. I sat down, and looked at my food in disgust and said "I don't think chicken is supposed to be black". This HUGE black dude got up from across the room, rushed over, and demanded to know what my problem was, because he heard me say "black". It's isn't words we should ban, and we certainly shouldn't do it based on race. It's usage, and intent to hurt we should focus on.
Post by
331902
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
331902
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
331902
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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