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The Future of Lordaeron

Post by Adamsm

Post by oneforthemoney

Edit: BTW, you call the Forsaken monsters for killing civilians at Southshore, but I don't see you condemning the Alliance for doing the same thing at Taurajo. Typical Alliance fan hypocrisy.

For anyone who still believes this is a discussion worth having, you may refer to the past fifteen pages on this exact subject and the progress made therein.

Post by 4dehorde

Edit: BTW, you call the Forsaken monsters for killing civilians at Southshore, but I don't see you condemning the Alliance for doing the same thing at Taurajo. Typical Alliance fan hypocrisy.

For anyone who still believes this is a discussion worth having, you may refer to the past fifteen pages on this exact subject and the progress made there.

The only progress I saw was that it was clearly proven you Alliance fans will always call the Horde evil for doing morally wrong things in war from time to time but when the Alliance does the exact same thing you either outright ignore it or whitewash it. The hypocrisy is so thick you can cut it with a knife.

Post by Adamsm

Edit: BTW, you call the Forsaken monsters for killing civilians at Southshore, but I don't see you condemning the Alliance for doing the same thing at Taurajo. Typical Alliance fan hypocrisy.

For anyone who still believes this is a discussion worth having, you may refer to the past fifteen pages on this exact subject and the progress made there.

The only progress I saw was that it was clearly proven you Alliance fans will always call the Horde evil for doing morally wrong things in war from time to time but when the Alliance does the exact same thing you either outright ignore it or whitewash it. The hypocrisy is so thick you can cut it with a knife.

And I see the same progress with the 'die hard' Horde fanatics who do the exact same thing....'Oh it's not evil if the Forsaken/Garrosh's Horde does it!'

Post by 4dehorde

Edit: BTW, you call the Forsaken monsters for killing civilians at Southshore, but I don't see you condemning the Alliance for doing the same thing at Taurajo. Typical Alliance fan hypocrisy.Actually I have; I've never once said that it was 'good' that civilians were killed at the Camp.

I called the use of the Blight monstrous, same as I would call any group using a weapon of mass destruction on a target that has civilians within it.

And no offense, but both sides have hypocrisy, such as white washing any of the Forsaken assaults on lands that were not theirs, and were never theirs to begin with.

And one more thing: You do realize that there are still living members of Lordaeron right? So they would have just as much right to the lands as the Forsaken do, which is who Varian was fighting for when he talked of 'taking Lordaeron back'; but then again, because they are human, I guess they just don't count? Those survivors in fact have had the loss of their homeland twice: Once to Scourge when they destroyed Capital City, then again when Garrosh's Horde destroyed Theramore.

Edit 2: I saw that post you made before deleting it. More lies as usual. Since you can't prove me wrong you resort to outright lying to try and get your way. I am here to discuss the truth pal and if you can't do that you have no place here.Actually dude, again that was from Tides of War, which hey, look at that, comes from Blizzard and is a canon source, which you claim does not count...so yeah, not really a lie my friend.

That's certainly news to me. Everything you've said about Taurajo thus far suggests you believe it was all fine and dandy.

I've already called use of the Blight wrong, but hey it isn't the first time you've ignored me so why stop now?

I've never once whitewashed ANYTHING wrong the Forsaken did. I abhor the loss of innocent life regardless of allegiance or affiliation.

Compared to the numbers of the Forsaken, the number of living Lordaeron survivors is nearly non-existent. And if the Alliance was trying to "reclaim" (I call it invading, butchering the citizens, and stealing the land) Lordaeron for those few living survivors, why were all the "provincial settlers" (I call them greedy land-snatchers) from Westfall and Redridge?

Finally, I did not ignore anything in Tides of War like you claim, so yes it is a lie.

Post by Adamsm

And if the Alliance was trying to "reclaim" (I call it invading, butchering the citizens, and stealing the land) Lordaeron for those few living survivorsUm..you do realize you can say the exact same thing for what the Forsaken did to the citizens of Southshore right?

Finally, I did not ignore anything in Tides of War like you claim, so yes it is a lieRight there; you said that Baine was lying and it can't be true, there fore it's not canon. Said it was not proven correct. Did it again there. And again, stating that Blizzard did not agree with it. Funden linked you the page right from the book and you still disagreed with him.

Post by Rankkor

*Cough* Taking Night Elven land in Ashenvale *Cough*

The orcs tried to negotiate for wood, and it was Varian who backed out. Not the horde.

And don't try bringing up the purge again. The Sunreavers as a faction were pro-horde and used Dalaran portals to try to give the Horde an upper hand in the Alliance-Horde War.

Whoa.

A: The Kirin Tor gave the alliance an upper hand in the Alliance-Horde war. Not once, not twice, but TRICE (Mage Regiment in Silverpine, Mage Regiment in Theramoore, Jaina setting up the wards to protect the bell.) How come its fair when they aid one side but not another? that's not neutrality. That's being a hypocrite.

B: It was confirmed already that the sunreavers were innocent.

The regent lord initiated conversations with King Varian Wrynn, hoping to rejoin the Alliance, but Garrosh sabotaged his diplomatic efforts by organizing a heist in Darnassus and focusing blame on the blood elves.

Get it through your head already THE SUNREAVERS WERE LOYAL MEMBERS OF DALARAN WHO DID NOTHING WRONG AND WERE BACKSTABBED BY THE ALLIANCE.

Also, in the game-guide (which as you know, not any old shmuck can edit) there is no mention of the tauren going into the horde because of the Dwarves. It only says that the Tauren were helped by the Horde to fight off the Centaur and the Tauren owed (and liked) them for that.

I never said that's the reason the taurens joined, I was debunking the stupid statement of Lordplatypus that the alliance NEVERS initiates aggresions, which is complete and total bullshit. The dwarves attacking the taurens was completely uncalled for. As was the other examples I gave on that post.

Post by oneforthemoney

The regent lord initiated conversations with King Varian Wrynn, hoping to rejoin the Alliance, but Garrosh sabotaged his diplomatic efforts by organizing a heist in Darnassus and focusing blame on the blood elves.

Get it through your head already THE SUNREAVERS WERE LOYAL MEMBERS OF DALARAN WHO DID NOTHING WRONG AND WERE BACKSTABBED BY THE ALLIANCE.

Well...not necessarily. The Sunreavers as a whole may not be responsible for what happened, but as an organization they do still have a responsibility for what its members do. So backstabbed is going a bit far. There was an overreaction from the Alliance side, that is not in question, but its not as though the Alliance suddenly turned about and started killing people. There was a clear sequence of events which led to this, and something had to have been done regardless of whether the Sunreavers were personally culpable. Their resources were twice used to cause serious devastation.

Keep in mind, I am not excusing Jaina's overreaction, but saying that they did nothing wrong and were backstabbed by the Allaince is not correct. They backstabbed themselves twice. Something had to happen after this, its simply unfortunate what did was so severe.

Post by Snake387

The orcs tried to negotiate for wood, and it was Varian who backed out. Not the horde.

But...it still Alliance land. Just because they don't want to sell, it doesn't give the Horde the right to invade.

B: It was confirmed already that the sunreavers were innocent.

New evidence, namely this:

Lady Jaina Proudmoore yells: Your people are legitimate prisoners of war. They orchestrated an attack on Darnassus from MY city-

Lor'themar Theron yells: The Sunreavers knew NOTHING of Garrosh's raid on Darnassus!

Aethas Sunreaver shifts uncomfortably.

A: The Kirin Tor gave the alliance an upper hand in the Alliance-Horde war. Not once, not twice, but TRICE (Mage Regiment in Silverpine, Mage Regiment in Theramoore, Jaina setting up the wards to protect the bell.) How come its fair when they aid one side but not another? that's not neutrality. That's being a hypocrite.

The mages in Ambermill leaned more to the Alliance because the Alliance were more helpful in their intentions, namely not getting attacked by forsaken and protecting the ley line their town was built on. Jaina was protecting a dangerous bell which the Night Elves weren't even trying to use, can't say the same for the Sunreavers. And the Mage regiment in Theramore was there to protect the city which was full of, y'know civilians that apparently haven't all escaped.

Everything you've said about Taurajo thus far suggests you believe it was all fine and dandy.

Well, it was justified since Taurajo amazingly WASN'T just the innocent hunter's camp you presume it was. They were making weapons for the Tauren infantry. Baine said it was justified. Some civillians managed to escape BECAUSE of the Alliance Commander there. Not because of luck like it was with Southshore.

Post by Rankkor

The orcs tried to negotiate for wood, and it was Varian who backed out. Not the horde.

But...it still Alliance land. Just because they don't want to sell, it doesn't give the Horde the right to invade.

Darn right it does. When the option is to starve themselves to death, or take the necessary supplies to survive, which option you'd think they pick?

Imagine if you were a family man, with a large family to feed, you are an honest worker, you earn money in an honest way, and yet no matter what store you go to, EVERYONE refuses to sell you food. Absolutely nobody will sell you anything, so your only options are A: Take food by force, or B: let you and your family starve to death.

What option would you take?

B: It was confirmed already that the sunreavers were innocent.

New evidence, namely this:

Lady Jaina Proudmoore yells: Your people are legitimate prisoners of war. They orchestrated an attack on Darnassus from MY city-

Lor'themar Theron yells: The Sunreavers knew NOTHING of Garrosh's raid on Darnassus!

Aethas Sunreaver shifts uncomfortably.

My evidence is newer. That article of Lor'themar was written IN PATCH 5.3, which is WAAAAAAY after 5.2

Its just that for people like you, the very idea that your precious alliance may actually do something despicable is inconceivable and thus you try to sugar-coat it or whitewash it in whatever way you can.

A: The Kirin Tor gave the alliance an upper hand in the Alliance-Horde war. Not once, not twice, but TRICE (Mage Regiment in Silverpine, Mage Regiment in Theramoore, Jaina setting up the wards to protect the bell.) How come its fair when they aid one side but not another? that's not neutrality. That's being a hypocrite.

The mages in Ambermill leaned more to the Alliance because the Alliance were more helpful in their intentions, namely not getting attacked by forsaken and protecting the ley line their town was built on.

Its still being a hypocrite. Those mages helped alliance forces kill horde troops. Why is that ok but the mere suspicion of a sunreaver aiding the horde warrants a purge?

Jaina was protecting a dangerous bell which the Night Elves weren't even trying to use

Its still aiding the alliance, if she was really so neutral she would had let their own mages protect the bell. Again, why is it ok that the Kirin Tor aid the alliance, but just the suspicion of someone in the Kirin Tor aiding the horde is so wrong? They are supposed to be NEUTRAL. Aiding the alliance do ANYTHING is not neutral.

can't say the same for the Sunreavers.

Yes you can, the sunreavers didn't even wanted the bell, they didn't even wanted the rest of the blood elves being a part of the horde and you see this when you do the horde version of the 5.1 questline, where Aethas firmly states that the blood elves had to be free of the yoke of Garrosh, and how the Sin'dorei had been close friends of Dalaran for many years and he wasn't about to throw that friendship asides just for the whims of their "warchief".

They weren't involved with the theft, you are taking Aethas looking unconfortable in the meeting with Jaina as evidence that he was somehow involved, which is WAAAAAAAY streching and jumping to conclusions. Blizzard's own site (which is not some random wiki any schmuck can edit) flat out spelled it out for you, Garrosh wanted to sabotage the negotiations that Lor'themar was doing to rejoin the alliance.

And the Mage regiment in Theramore was there to protect the city which was full of, y'know civilians that apparently haven't all escaped.

what part of NEUTRAL isn't clear enough for you? those mages still helped alliance forces fight horde forces. Why is that ok but so wrong that anyone in dalaran helps the horde fight the alliance?. And Theramoore was completely empty of civilians even before the attack began for 3 reasons.

A: Baine warned them long before the attack began, and they started evacuations before any horde troops even made it to the city walls.

B: Even if he hadn't, Garrosh at no point blockaded the city, the entire backyard leading to the ocean was wide open, rather than a tiny gap amidst smoke and fire like in taurajo. This is the entire back yard of the city we're talking about.

C: Garrosh stalled the attack for days because he wanted the largest concentration of miltiary forces before dropping the bomb, so they still had even more time to get any non-combatant out of there.

Everything you've said about Taurajo thus far suggests you believe it was all fine and dandy.

Well, it was justified since Taurajo amazingly WASN'T just the innocent hunter's camp you presume it was.

Well, Theramoore was justified, since that city, amazingly WASN'T just the innocent city you presume it was. See how that works? from theramoore the alliance staged an attack against the horde IN THREE FRONTS. They were more than asking to be attacked.

Some civillians managed to escape BECAUSE of the Alliance Commander there. Not because of luck like it was with Southshore.

Some. Heavy emphasis on SOME. Meanwhile, in theramoore ALL civilians had been evacuated before the battle even began. And not because the horde decided to leave a tiny gap amidst the confusion of the attack, nor because they attacked cowardly while the defending forces were away. It was because they let them know they were coming days earlier, and even when they were there, tehy left 50% of the city wide open for anyone who wanted to leave to do so.

Your move.

Post by Snake387

Some. Heavy emphasis on SOME. Meanwhile, in theramoore ALL civilians had been evacuated before the battle even began. And not because the horde decided to leave a tiny gap amidst the confusion of the attack, nor because they attacked cowardly while the defending forces were away. It was because they let them know they were coming days earlier, and even when they were there, tehy left 50% of the city wide open for anyone who wanted to leave to do so.

That depends on whether the current SoO version on the PTR stays the same or not since, astonishingly, there are Theramore Civilians in it. So either a) You don't trust the PTR and we wait until SoO or b) You admit that not all of the civilians escaped.

what part of NEUTRAL isn't clear enough for you? those mages still helped alliance forces fight horde forces. Why is that ok but so wrong that anyone in dalaran helps the horde fight the alliance?.

The Kirin Tor rule the city, the Sunreavers counterparts are the Silver Covenant, not the Kirin Tor who are the 'government' of the city. So, they aren't part of the Alliance until after the purge. Also, defending a city that has civilians in it at the time, that is soooo bad. Meanwhile not listening to the orders of your own leader and infiltrating an Alliance capital city can be overlooked.

Yes you can, the sunreavers didn't even wanted the bell, they didn't even wanted the rest of the blood elves being a part of the horde and you see this when you do the horde version of the 5.1 questline, where Aethas firmly states that the blood elves had to be free of the yoke of Garrosh, and how the Sin'dorei had been close friends of Dalaran for many years and he wasn't about to throw that friendship asides just for the whims of their "warchief".

Yet, the still represent the Horde in Dalaran like the Silver Covenant represent the Alliance. And they still have people working for him.

My evidence is newer. That article of Lor'themar was written IN PATCH 5.3, which is WAAAAAAY after 5.2

Its just that for people like you, the very idea that your precious alliance may actually do something despicable is inconceivable and thus you try to sugar-coat it or whitewash it in whatever way you can.

I meant that I never knew that at the time of the first round. And actually, I know that the Alliance do things that could be bad or evil it's why the have the SI:7, but you're making out that "Huur, durr, the Alliance are ultimate forces of evil and the horde are only evil a little bit, hurr, durr."

Its still aiding the alliance, if she was really so neutral she would had let their own mages protect the bell.

Erm, maybe because she's a powerful mage and making mages guard a capital city would be 'breaching Dalaran's neutrality'?

They weren't involved with the theft, you are taking Aethas looking unconfortable in the meeting with Jaina as evidence that he was somehow involved, which is WAAAAAAAY streching and jumping to conclusions. Blizzard's own site (which is not some random wiki any schmuck can edit) flat out spelled it out for you, Garrosh wanted to sabotage the negotiations that Lor'themar was doing to rejoin the alliance.

By the way the conversation was going. You've got to be really biased to not take that as a direct hint from Blizzard that the Sunreavers were involved. And making Blood Elves infiltrate a Capital City and steal a super-powerful weapon is somehow not sabotaging an attempt at neutrality?

Darn right it does. When the option is to starve themselves to death, or take the necessary supplies to survive, which option you'd think they pick?

Imagine if you were a family man, with a large family to feed, you are an honest worker, you earn money in an honest way, and yet no matter what store you go to, EVERYONE refuses to sell you food. Absolutely nobody will sell you anything, so your only options are A: Take food by force, or B: let you and your family starve to death.

Wood. That's all that's in Ashenvale. Not a whole load of food. Just wood. What do people use wood for in Azeroth? To create furniture (not necessary) and to create transport vehicles which could be used against the Alliance. Not to feed anyone or do something necessary to someone's survival.

Post by morginar

My evidence is newer. That article of Lor'themar was written IN PATCH 5.3, which is WAAAAAAY after 5.2

Its just that for people like you, the very idea that your precious alliance may actually do something despicable is inconceivable and thus you try to sugar-coat it or whitewash it in whatever way you can.
I meant that I never knew that at the time of the first round. And actually, I know that the Alliance do things that could be bad or evil it's why the have the SI:7, but you're making out that "Huur, durr, the Alliance are ultimate forces of evil and the horde are only evil a little bit, hurr, durr."

Actulay you do sound a bit like: "The alliance is incapable of any evil act." Snake and Rankkor opse that idea becouse the alliance have done evil, in the past present and the future.

Honestly both factions are able to do evil, and good too. And beliving it is a battle of white(ally) vs black(horde) is just dumb. And should the story devolve into it then it would be most boring.

Darn right it does. When the option is to starve themselves to death, or take the necessary supplies to survive, which option you'd think they pick?

Imagine if you were a family man, with a large family to feed, you are an honest worker, you earn money in an honest way, and yet no matter what store you go to, EVERYONE refuses to sell you food. Absolutely nobody will sell you anything, so your only options are A: Take food by force, or B: let you and your family starve to death.
Wood. That's all that's in Ashenvale. Not a whole load of food. Just wood. What do people use wood for in Azeroth? To create furniture (not necessary) and to create transport vehicles which could be used against the Alliance. Not to feed anyone or do something necessary to someone's survival.

The orcs needed wood to build houses and warm said houses. And Garossh used this as an exuce to attack the night elves. However the orc cut down trees to taunt the elves and the wood was used Saruman style with catapults, warships and furnaces for weapons.

There are other plazes in azeroth with wood (grizzly hills, hillbrad fothills, stranglethorn, Un'guro and overgrowth for expample). The orc chose Ashenvale.

Garry is just a blood thristy mega bad apple.

By the way the conversation was going. You've got to be really biased to not take that as a direct hint from Blizzard that the Sunreavers were involved. And making Blood Elves infiltrate a Capital City and steal a super-powerful weapon is somehow not sabotaging an attempt at neutrality?

Blizzard lays out flase hints to. A good writer does so to spark conspiracy theories.

And blizzard do say that the elves where blamed. Fanlyr Silverthorn, the one who ported the bell, have no canon data confirming him to be a Sunreaver to begin with.

Post by Snake387

Blizzard lays out flase hints to. A good writer does so to spark conspiracy theories.

So...erm, why did Aethas shift uncomfortably. Can I have a decent reason please?

Actulay you do sound a bit like: "The alliance is incapable of any evil act." Snake and Rankkor opse that idea becouse the alliance have done evil, in the past present and the future.

What?

Post by morginar

Actulay you do sound a bit like: "The alliance is incapable of any evil act." Snake. Rankkor opse that idea becouse the alliance have done evil, in the past present and the future, same goes for the boys in crimson.

What?
Gramatical Error.

So...erm, why did Aethas shift uncomfortably. Can I have a decent reason please?
With plesure:

He needed to pee.
He was uncomforatble with being blamed
He was uncomfortable with people going for his head
He blames himself for what silverthorn did.
He had a uncomfortable mental image

I could go on more if you like.

Post by Snake387

First one's not decent, others make sense, I suppose. We'll just have to wait and see. And the thinking that the Alliance are all nice bit, in most of the arguments here, the Alliance had done nothing wrong. But did you see me complaining about Theramore until yesterday when I saw the SoO raid on PTR? And didn't I agree that what the Sylvanas is doing with the Val'kyr is actually all right. So, yeah, I've agreed that the Horde aren't ultimate forces of evil but in all of the situations here...the Alliance, as far as I can see, has done nothing wrong.

Post by bromil

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

--Albert Einstein

Post by Skreeran

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

--Albert EinsteinIncorrect.

Post by Monday

Darn right it does.

That is not a viable reason to invade anyone, ever. It's an incredibly slippery slope that runs down to "Hey, those guys have something I want. Let's kill 'em all!"

Post by morginar

Darn right it does.

That is not a viable reason to invade anyone, ever. It's an incredibly slippery slope that runs down to "Hey, those guys have something I want. Let's kill 'em all!"

Indeed, Ashenvale is not a good deed no mater how you look at it. There are other places to look for wood than that one that is inhabited and loved by elves for over ten-thousand years.

Garrosh picked Ashenvale only becouse there was allaince elves in it. And that they denied wood becouse of reasons. Then garrosh went full Saruman and began to clean cut the forest.

Post by Skreeran

Darn right it does.

That is not a viable reason to invade anyone, ever. It's an incredibly slippery slope that runs down to "Hey, those guys have something I want. Let's kill 'em all!"Perhaps not moral, but it's not exactly unprecedented. Less than 200 years in our own history, we displaced the American Indians and rounded them up into reservations because we wanted their land.

Sure, you can say it's wrong now, but historically, a great many wars were started because the one side had a resource the other wanted.

The Future of Lordaeron

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