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Post by
Ksero
Of course if you know the country someone is from you should use that when addressing or speaking about them, but say you are meeting a new group of people, and you need find out someone's name. you can go off what they look like and make a general guess of the area they came from, and politely ask someone you know what the asian guys name is, I really don't think anyone would be offended by that.
Post by
Gone
Actually, Indians and Chinese have ridiculous amounts in common culturally, ranging from general household arrangements, value on education and wealth and career, the particular type of patriarchal society, and so on. To suggest that India has nothing in common with 'East Asia', casts significant doubt over the value of what you're saying.
India is a unique case as it's one of the few cultures that borrows from both east Asian and Middle Eastern tradition.
It offends me more that you think we think that we have a single 'Asian' culture that doesn't reflect the multitude of national cultures that it includes.Don't be putting *!@#ing words in my mouth. Every east Asian culture is diverse, but that doesn't mean they lack overlying cultural similarities, such as writing style, influence of Confucianism, a certain type of family hierarchy, etc.
Saying they share overlying cultural similarities doesn't diminish the naunces of what makes their cultures unique.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
I don't see what "offense" has to do with a scientific classification. Either there are anthropological, sociological, or historical reasons for classifying something a certain way, or there are not. Whether people are offended by it or not should have no bearing.
Post by
240140
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Haxzor
Sri Lankan and I've never met someone from Bangladesh. Bangladeshi?
Uh.. I mean, are they asian? They are not indian, which apparently is a subcontinent. As a country, what are they? Nothing?
Also the fact that squish agrees with me is enough for me to feel that I'm right about this. He is really the only one here who would be affected by it, so.
Thinking about it, I'd probably call them Indian aswell, coming from a common ancestor and all
If we're going that route we might as well call everyone African, right?
I'm pretty sure a bengali would be pissed if you called them indian.
Also HSR none of that is what the topic is about. It's about avoiding the implifications of a monolith, mostly.
I still think it's hurtful to say to people in ASIA that they can't call themselves asian, but whatever.
When you think of an Australian, what do you see?
Post by
Monday
I still think it's hurtful to say to people in ASIA that they can't call themselves asian, but whatever.
Where did ANY of us say this?
Post by
Ksero
I don't see what "offense" has to do with a scientific classification. Either there are anthropological, sociological, or historical reasons for classifying something a certain way, or their are not. Whether people are offended by it or not should have no bearing.
I was only responding to what had been posted, I agree with you.
Post by
240140
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Monday
It's what you have been implying this whole time by saying they can't call their culture asian...
... not to be rude, but this is the dumbest thing I've read in awhile. I've been implying that the general view of most of the world when they think of Asia is Japan, China and Korea. Nowhere did I say that other Asian countries cannot call themselves Asian.
And, as a matter of fact, I also agreed that it's stupid when people do that. Honestly, do you even know how to read?
Oops, wasn't going to reply here anymore. Silly hands, never listen to me. I'll just not open the thread.
AKA
Oh crap, I might be proven wrong, time to stuff my fingers in my ears and sing at the top of my lungs.
(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##Squishalot##DELIM##Personal attack, muchly? Take it easy, don't make me have to go all mod-like. I want to just be part of the conversation/debate for once.
Post by
Haxzor
And Hax, I think of aboriginals ;)
And I call bull%^&*, just like when people say American they don't think about the natives.
Post by
Squishalot
Hax, it's slightly different though, because we've got a predominantly Anglo-Saxon society that have Australian citizenship. To be honest, when I think of 'Australian', I think of bogans from the Shire going overseas and embarrassing the rest of us.
India is a unique case as it's one of the few cultures that borrows from both east Asian and Middle Eastern tradition.
How about Indonesia? Cultural influences from India (migration), the Middle East (religion) and China (migration / trade).
Don't be putting *!@#ing words in my mouth. Every east Asian culture is diverse, but that doesn't mean they lack overlying cultural similarities, such as writing style, influence of Confucianism, a certain type of family hierarchy, etc.
Confucianism? Japan and Korea would beg to differ, as well as Vietnam, Indonesia, and Malaysia.
Family hierarchy? I've already pointed out India, the second biggest country on the planet, which you've happily disregarded.
Writing style? There is very little in common between neighbours Korea and China.
I'm not putting any words in your mouth. You said:
people of East Asia, who think of their very unique culture as "Asian."
And I think that's BS. I would hate to think that you would look at Gangnam style and classify that as 'Asian', as opposed to 'Korean'. Interest linked a youtube video about being sick in the workplace in Korean culture. That's exactly it - "Korean culture", not "Asian culture". There are some shared elements, but what people perceive to be "Asian" is nowhere near as vast as what is actually the case.
Of course if you know the country someone is from you should use that when addressing or speaking about them, but say you are meeting a new group of people, and you need find out someone's name. you can go off what they look like and make a general guess of the area they came from, and politely ask someone you know what the asian guys name is, I really don't think anyone would be offended by that.
I'd make an educated guess on their nationality and run with that, if I was being rude enough not to refer to something that actually uniquely identified them (e.g., "the person with the black leather jacket", or "the guy on the right in that group").
Post by
Gone
Ok I have o go take a test and I don't have time to do a detailed response. But Squish, are you really trying to say that far eastern Asian cultures don't share anything in common? Really? Nothing at all? No similarities in art or history or anything like that? Their logographic writing systems in many (not all, calm down) cases don't have a common ancestor?
You seem to be laboring under the delusion that if there's one country that doesn't follow the similarity, that means none of them do. The fact that every Asian country doesn't have history rooted in Confucianism for example, doesn't mean that it hasn't had an affect on the region.
I'll be back in two hours.
And I think that's BS. I would hate to think that you would look at Gangnam style and classify that as 'Asian', as opposed to 'Korean'. Interest linked a youtube video about being sick in the workplace in Korean culture. That's exactly it - "Korean culture", not "Asian culture". There are some shared elements, but what people perceive to be "Asian" is nowhere near as vast as what is actually the case.Gangam Style is a %^&*ing youtube video. You're confusing pop culture with historical culture.
Post by
Monday
Sorry, Squish. I just get kind of annoyed when people misconstrue my point repeatedly and then walk out while acting all high and mighty.
Post by
Squishalot
But Squish, are you really trying to say that far eastern Asian cultures don't share anything in common? Really? Nothing at all? No similarities in art or history or anything like that? Their logographic writing systems in many (not all, calm down) cases don't have a common ancestor?
I don't refer to North Americans as 'Europeans' because that was your common ancestor, or because you have things in common with them.
You seem to be laboring under the delusion that if there's one country that doesn't follow the similarity, that means none of them do. The fact that every Asian country doesn't have history rooted in Confucianism for example, doesn't mean that it hasn't had an affect on the region.
On the flip side, you're taking elements that are specific to the Chinese and assuming that the rest of 'Asia' follows it.
Gangam Style is a %^&*ing youtube video. You're confusing pop culture with historical culture.
Gangnam Style is a parody of the culture in Gangnam, a suburb in Korea.
Out of curiosity, have you been through any part of Asia? What are you basing your views on? I've travelled through Japan, Taiwan, many parts of China, Hong Kong, Vietnam, Thailand, Singapore and Malaysia. I have a Malaysian-Chinese heritage (which you may know is significantly different culturally from the Singaporean-Chinese, the Hong Kong-Chinese, the Taiwanese-Chinese and the China-Chinese, which can be broken into Northern China / Southern China, or even city-specific cultures).
A lot of the perception of what "Asian" is is based on Chinese hailing from Hong Kong and from parts of mainland China, specifically Beijing, Shanghai or Guangzhou, as well as parts of Japan. The thing is, that barely scratches the surface of what "Asia", or even "East Asia", is, and ignores the fact that a lot of the rest of Asia (e.g. India, Sri Lanka) share the same characteristics.(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##Squishalot##DELIM##
Post by
Gone
I don't refer to North Americans as 'Europeans' because that was your common ancestor, or because you have things in common with them.
That's different, we no longer reside in Europe. Would you refer to a person from Peru as American?
On the flip side, you're taking elements that are specific to the Chinese and assuming that the rest of 'Asia' follows it.
Saying that Confucianism is unique to China is like saying that the Socratic Method is unique to Greece. This particular philosophical teaching spread all over Asia, from Vietnam to Japan, and even into Europe. It even became state law in some countries. The state lines that are there now didn't always exist. One people would conquer another and spread their own teachings, language, art, history, and philosophical outlook.
You can choose to be offended by this, or misinterpretation it as me saying that all Asians are just one big monolithic culture, but that doesn't change the facts. There are historical similarities regarding language, art, philosophy, religion and ethnicity between many far eastern Asian cultures. It's not subjective opinion, it's a quantifiable fact.
Please don't insult me, I'm not an idiot, and I don't assume every aspect of Asian culture is Chinese.
Gangnam Style is a parody of the culture in Gangnam, a suburb in Korea.
And Gangsters Paradise is a commentary on the violence begetiing violence lifestyle that kids are faced with growing up on in a ghetto. Does that make it a representation of American culture?
I think this is the point of our disagreement here. You seem to be talking about post modern culture, I'm talking about the roots of historical culture (which influence modern culture).
Post by
Squishalot
I think this is the point of our disagreement here. You seem to be talking about post modern culture, I'm talking about the roots of historical culture (which influence modern culture).
So tell me - do you honestly think that when people refer to 'Asians', that you think they do so out of the appreciation of Confucianism and the etymology of their language, and not referring to the fact that they have similarly yellow-ish skin, black hair, study hard, use chopsticks to eat noodles and talk with an accent?
You're right in that this is our point of disagreement. I'm looking at the modern world definition of the Asian stereotype, which is where Elura's argument stemmed from. I'm not sure why you think historical culture has anything to do with that.(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##Squishalot##DELIM##
Post by
Gone
I think this is the point of our disagreement here. You seem to be talking about post modern culture, I'm talking about the roots of historical culture (which influence modern culture).
So tell me - do you honestly think that when people refer to 'Asians', that you think they do so out of the appreciation of Confucianism and the etymology of their language, and not referring to the fact that they have similarly yellow-ish skin, black hair, study hard, use chopsticks to eat noodles and talk with an accent?
That depends on several things. First, if the term "Asian" is referring to geography, culture, or ethnicity. Secondly, it depends on how educated the person is, your example obviously implies that the hypothetical average Joe in question is largely ignorant of Asian culture.
Now lets assume, the context is in regards to culture, as this was. When somebody thinks Asian culture, maybe they think of Confucianism and language and far eastern art, or maybe they think of dragons and chopsticks and firecrackers. As I said it depends on how informed they are. Regardless, I don't see how this is relevant to our discussion. It doesn't matter what the average person thinks, it matters what we think here.
You're right in that this is our point of disagreement. I'm looking at the modern world definition of the Asian stereotype, which is where Elura's argument stemmed from. I'm not sure why you think historical culture has anything to do with that.
Because modern culture stems from historical culture. Especially in a lot of the lesser developed areas like Vietnam and Laos. Why do you think that there are so many Christians in America and Europe, and so many Muslims in the middle east? Because of societal trends that echo through history and continue to effect our modern day lives.
Furthermore, this all started when Hax said that he liked Asian culture, and so he wanted to travel there. Modern culture, of any kind, is influenced primarily by two factors. Globalization, and history. If somebody is going to travel to China, what do you think their going to want to see, some nightclub or bar that they can just as easily see in any American city? Or the Great Wall? Even many of the modern tourist spots in China and Japan, the museums, the art exhibits, the food, are made unique by the influence of far eastern culture.
Given the position Hax took in the debate I think I was right in judging his definition of "Asian culture."
I'm not exactly sure why
you
would assume the debate was referring to post modern Asian pop culture.
Post by
Squishalot
Even many of the modern tourist spots in China and Japan, the museums, the art exhibits, the food, are made unique by the influence of far eastern culture.
Actually, it started from Mike's comment. Now you're lumping all Australians together :P
Let's even put it in context:
Probably
Japan, Tokyo
ending the trip with experiencing old cultural japan before going home.
I'm a sucker for asian culture.
If this is how you're defining what Mike would be looking for in his pursuit of experiencing 'Asian culture', then you're only confirming my point that it is not 'Asian culture' he's looking for, but '<country> culture', of which several of those countries are located in Asia. Japanese museums, art exhibits, food are completely and utterly different to Korean, Chinese, Vietnamese, Thai, and Indonesian ones. In particular, he's warranted 'Japanese culture' as being important enough to list out as his preferred choice.
Regardless, I don't see how this is relevant to our discussion. It doesn't matter what the average person thinks, it matters what we think here.
You've made it how Mike thinks. So coming back around to how Mike thinks, in the context of the statement, can you see where I'm coming from?
Post by
Gone
Even many of the modern tourist spots in China and Japan, the museums, the art exhibits, the food, are made unique by the influence of far eastern culture.
Actually, it started from Mike's comment. Now you're lumping all Australians together :P
WHOOPS lol
If this is how you're defining what Mike would be looking for in his pursuit of experiencing 'Asian culture', then you're only confirming my point that it is not 'Asian culture' he's looking for, but '<country> culture', of which several of those countries are located in Asia. Japanese museums, art exhibits, food are completely and utterly different to Korean, Chinese, Vietnamese, Thai, and Indonesian ones. In particular, he's warranted 'Japanese culture' as being important enough to list out as his preferred choice.Now we're coming back around to you trying to say that just because all Asian cultures are different, that means they don't have similar influences. And for the record there are a lot of similarities between Japanese and Korean art and food, so I'm not sure why you would imply that there aren't. I feel like you're making an assumption here, and banking on the diversity of different cultures when you throw out a comment like that.
It's kind of like earlier with Confucianism, when you accused me of basing everything Asian on China, when even a tiny amount of research will yield that it's had a profound effect on many far eastern cultures.
I will fully admit that there is a great diversity among different Asian societies, I don't understand why you're so resistant to just admitting that they share some cultural similarities.
Saying there are cultural similarities doesn't mean that each country is a carbon copy of each other, I don't get why you can't get passed that.
Post by
Squishalot
Now we're coming back around to you trying to say that just because all Asian cultures are different, that means they don't have similar influences. And for the record there are a lot of similarities between Japanese and Korean art and food, so I'm not sure why you would imply that there aren't. I feel like you're making an assumption here, and banking on the diversity of different cultures when you throw out a comment like that.
I'm not banking on the diversity of anything. Using food as an example, Korea's food staple, kimchi, has no real equivalent in Japan. You won't find anything in Japan that remotely resembles dukboki. Okinomiyaki is nothing like pajeon. Their noodle-based dishes are completely different - japchae vs. ramen / soba / udon? The only remotely similar food between the two countries are their hotpots, and jjigae is very different in style, flavour and philosophy to sukiyaki or shabu shabu. They both eat rice and have forms of dumplings, as with pretty much every East Asian country, but then so do Russia and India. The fact that you raise food as an example of 'similarities between Korea and Japan' suggests to me that you're making the exact opposite assumption, that you're banking on the similarities of geographically similar countries.
For the same reason that I wouldn't say that British culture is the same as French culture, just because they have similarities in art, food, and background. They're not just "European culture", or "Western culture", they're "British culture" and "French culture". I don't like the generalisation that comes with applying a broad naming convention across dozens of unique countries and cultures that happen to share a geographical region.
Saying there are cultural similarities doesn't mean that each country is a carbon copy of each other, I don't get why you can't get passed that.
I have no issues with the fact that there are some similarities in culture between many countries. I don't like the fact that you think that means that you can and/or should lump them all together under the heading of "Asian culture", in the same way that we wouldn't refer to things as "European culture".
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