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Post by
Gone
I have no issues with the fact that there are some similarities in culture between many countries. I don't like the fact that you think that means that you can and/or should lump them all together under the heading of "Asian culture", in the same way that we wouldn't refer to things as "European culture".
Then we agree in principle, we're just arguing over semantics. Of course there is Chinese culture and Japanese culture, and I would say they are both a part of a
much more broad
group that I would call Asian culture. I in no way ever tried to lump all Asians together. All that I have maintained is that many east Asian countries share many cultural and historical similarities. Just like France and England each have their own culture, but share enough historical similarities that they are also both part of a broader group that I would refer to as western European culture.
Post by
Squishalot
No, I think we still have to disagree in principle, because they're not quite the same in scale and breadth. "Western European culture" would be somewhat equivalent to "East Asian culture". What you're trying to do is equate "Asian culture" with "East Asian culture" and pass that off as acceptable. However, in your own words, you would refer to France and England as being part of a broader group referred to as "Western European culture", in order to separate them out from Serbia, or Hungary perhaps, which have very different backgrounds. You wouldn't necessarily want to pass them all over as "European culture". That, in reality, is the crux of Elura's original argument.
If I can suggest an example of me arguing this track, let me lead you to the poll I created for geographical location:
http://www.wowhead.com/forums&topic=210943
I split out Russia, sub-continental Asia and Eastern Asia as three separate regions, because they have generally different characteristics, much the same way that I split out Europe into three primary regions. I personally don't really classify the Middle East as part of 'Asia' because I see the region as the rough meeting point of three continents (I still don't quite understand why Europe / Asia isn't treated as a single continent).(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##Squishalot##DELIM##
Post by
Gone
No, I think we still have to disagree in principle, because they're not quite the same in scale and breadth. "Western European culture" would be somewhat equivalent to "East Asian culture". What you're trying to do is equate "Asian culture" with "East Asian culture" and pass that off as acceptable. However, in your own words, you would refer to France and England as being part of a broader group referred to as "Western European culture", in order to separate them out from Serbia, or Hungary perhaps, which have very different backgrounds. You wouldn't necessarily want to pass them all over as "European culture". That, in reality, is the crux of Elura's original argument.
Then you're not disagreeing with the principle, you're disagreeing with the phrasing. It's a vastly different and much more arbitrary problem you have here than what the actual spirit of my argument was.
Furthermore, people separate Eastern and Western Europe, just like they separate East Asia from Southwest Asia/Northeast Africa. The Phrases "Asia" and the "Middle East" are just what most people recognize them by. If you have a problem with that, take it up with the Middle East, or with Cyrus II of Persia for establishing his empire across two continents.
That was what the point of EluraE's argument was maybe, but you and I were discussing a different issue.
I split out Russia, sub-continental Asia and Eastern Asia as three separate regions, because they have generally different characteristics, much the same way that I split out Europe into three primary regions.
Well how very detail conscious of you, but again, when I use the phrase Asian culture, I'm speaking in the broadest sense.
Again, for the millionth time, I recognize that the Asian continent, and even east Asia alone, is made up of many different diverse cultures and societies. However, in a broad sense, many of them share religious, cultural, philosophical, political, artistic and historical culture.
Again
I am not saying that this means all east Asian cultures are lumped together
and if you try to imply that I was one more time I might scream.
I am fully aware of how diverse a place the world is, and I find you linking that thread and then trying to explain that to me like I'm some kind of a child very insulting.
Post by
Mike
What have I done :(
My simple post has turned in to 5 pages of arguments :|
Post by
Squishalot
Of course there is Chinese culture and Japanese culture, and I would say they are both a part of a much
more broad group that I would call Asian culture
. I in no way ever tried to lump all Asians together.
You're identifying a group, and calling it Asian. You're trying to suggest that you're not lumping Asians together, despite identifying them as a group.
Would you think that I was lumping you in with a bunch of other people if I suggested that your argument is 'typical of Western attitude'? Of course there are US attitudes and there are British attitudes, and French attitudes, but they could be part of a much more broad group that we could call 'Western' attitudes. But is that lumping all Westerners together? By your argument, it's not. What do you think? What do you even mean by 'lumped together'?
What have I done :(
My simple post has turned in to 5 pages of arguments :|
Welcome to Off-Topic :)(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##Squishalot##DELIM##
Post by
Gone
Don't play dumb to try and derail the argument, you know what lumping together means and you obviously know that in this context it has negative implications.
You're identifying a group, and calling it Asian. You're trying to suggest that you're not lumping Asians together, despite identifying them as a group.
Holy ^&*!ing !@#$, no that's not what I'm doing. I'm identifying several different diverse groups, identifying cultural and historical similarities, and classifying the similarities as Asian (or east Asian if you prefer).
Post by
Squishalot
Don't play dumb to try and derail the argument, you know what lumping together means and you obviously know that in this context it has negative implications.
You're identifying a group, and calling it Asian. You're trying to suggest that you're not lumping Asians together, despite identifying them as a group.
Holy ^&*!ing !@#$, no that's not what I'm doing. I'm identifying several different diverse groups, identifying cultural and historical similarities, and classifying the similarities as Asian (or east Asian if you prefer).
No, I'm not playing anything. Don't avoid the argument. If you're not going to explain why you think that doesn't involve 'lumping' distinctly different groups together in a way that wouldn't let me portray your views as 'typically Western', or even 'typically US', then we don't really have a discussion. I don't see how culture is any different from attitude, in this context.
If you'd like a bit more clarification on where my beef comes with this argument, it's that my 7 year old niece has somehow been taught at school that she's "Asian", and didn't realise that she is "Chinese", or even that being Chinese is a sub-set of being Asian. The general perception that "Asian" is a catch-all categorical group reduces the association with one's actual cultural heritage and is generally damaging to those cultures, the more people perceive them to be generically 'Asian'.
Now, all that said, it strikes me that I haven't had a chance to answer the question.
I'm actually travelling to Japan in November and Malaysia / Singapore in December this year. But under the terms of the QOTD, I'd rather go somewhere in Europe - perhaps Italy or Spain - and take advantage of the relatively cheap prices afforded by the poor economies. Maybe France, and spend a month touring the countryside. Anywhere else on my list of 'places to go' and I wouldn't get terribly far on $2k. My budget for the Japan trip is already adding up to $5-6k over a couple of weeks.(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##Squishalot##DELIM##
Post by
Gone
No, I'm not playing anything. Don't avoid the argument. If you're not going to explain why you think that doesn't involve 'lumping' distinctly different groups together in a way that wouldn't let me portray your views as 'typically Western', or even 'typically US', then we don't really have a discussion.
Lumping together implies that people are being grouped together unfairly, perhaps based on a stereotype.
I don't see how culture is any different from attitude, in this context.
First of all the term "typically" makes it seem more flip and insulting. Second of all, "typical US attitude" is A, not something that's actually quantifiable as attitude can be perceived, and B it's obviously used in a negative context.
East Asian states
do
share aspects of culture with each other. It's quantifiable, it's a fact, and it's historically traceable. And there is nothing offensive of insulting about it. Can you really not see teh difference between saying Westerners have a typical attitude of ignorance and saying that east Asia shares a lot of artistic, philosophical, religious, etc, history?
If you'd like a bit more clarification on where my beef comes with this argument, it's that my 7 year old niece has somehow been taught at school that she's "Asian", and didn't realise that she is "Chinese", or even that being Chinese is a sub-set of being Asian. The general perception that "Asian" is a catch-all categorical group reduces the association with one's actual cultural heritage and is generally damaging to those cultures, the more people perceive them to be generically 'Asian'.
First of all, do you really expect second graders to have been taught a lot of far eastern tradition? In any case, take that up with the school.
My problem here is that i feel as though you keep trying to make my argument something that it's not. In fact a few times you have outright accused me of saying things that I never said or implied:
On the flip side, you're taking elements that are specific to the Chinese and assuming that the rest of 'Asia' follows it.
Post by
Squishalot
See my further notes above. Yes, I don't see a huge difference, because I see that the similarities are superficial compared to the depth of the uniqueness of their individual cultures. I also find it quite insulting to be referred to generally as an 'Asian', because it means that the person in question doesn't care / have an appreciation for my cultural background. I would rather someone had a go at trying to understand what nationality I am, rather than accept what 'continentality' I am.
The more that you refer to Asians as having similarities, the more you perpetuate the stereotype that they are a homogenous group. 'Westerners' are a homogenous group with similarities in artistic, philosophical, religious history with similar writing and language etymology. Do you like being painted as a Westerner?
First of all, do you really expect second graders to have been taught a lot of far eastern tradition?
Obviously it's a bit different over here in Australia, but you have to remember that we're right next door to Asia. Secondly, her school has about a 20% Chinese population due to the demographic of that particular neighbourhood, along with another 20-30% across other East Asian / sub-continental nationalities. I would think that a certain degree of cultural acknowledgement would be due.
My problem here is that i feel as though you keep trying to make my argument something that it's not. In fact a few times you have outright accused me of saying things that I never said or implied:
I'm sorry if you feel that way. However, Confucianism isn't any more relevant to Asia than Greek Philosophy is to the US. You don't go on a tour of Malaysia or Singapore and expect to see Confucian symbolism and temples and history anywhere, for example. It's helped shape what many East Asian countries are like today, but perhaps not the way you're imagining.
I'd also like to note that you haven't responded to my point about 'similarities between Korean and Japanese foods'. That's something you definitely did say, which I am refuting in no uncertain terms.(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##Squishalot##DELIM##
Post by
Gone
Yes, I don't see a huge difference, because I see that the similarities are superficial compared to the depth of the uniqueness of their individual cultures.
That reasoning has nothing to do with the original comparison...
The more that you refer to Asians as having similarities, the more you perpetuate the stereotype that they are a homogenous group.But the similarities are there. It's not me making a judgment, it's a unanimous consensus by every anthropologist or historian that's ever studied eastern culture. The cultural similarities are there. It's a fact.
'Westerners' are a homogenous group with similarities in artistic, philosophical, religious history with similar writing and language etymology. Do you like being painted as a Westerner?I literally have no problem with it. You know why? Because it's true! I'm a westerner. I'm also an American, and my family is Irish. These things are all a part of my identity, but when somebody refers to my culture, in a broad sense, as Western, I wouldn't take offense to that.
And even if I did find it offensive, I wouldn't try to pretend the similarities between, for example, Irish and Scottish heritage and culture don't exist, or downplay them, as you seem to be trying to.
I'm sorry if you feel that way. However, Confucianism isn't any more relevant to Asia than Greek Philosophy is to the US.
First of all, Greek philosophy is extremely relevant in the US. Set aside that the Greeks basically pioneered rational thought. The Socratic method of teaching is still used in many graduate programs, including every accredited law school in the country. The serenity prayer that they read at the beginning of NA/AA meetings is straight from Epictetus. I could list all the ways that Greek philosophy influences western culture, but I would be writing a book.
In this same way Confucianism radically impacted many of the far eastern cultures. Maybe it's not still practiced today, just like Platoism isn't practiced in the west. But much of the far eastern mindset is influenced by the cultural habits as a result of it.
And you implied I had listed multiple things, not just that.
I'd also like to note that you haven't responded to my point about 'similarities between Korean and Japanese foods'. That's something you definitely did say, which I am refuting in no uncertain terms.
There's nothing that I can say you won't shoot down with the same bull#$%^ argument you've been using. I'll point out a similarity, then you'll point out some other, non asian culture with the same similarity and list ten cultural differences, believing this somehow negates the similarity.
If you are offended at being referred to as Asian I'll give you that one. Everybody should do what they can to avoid offending people. But I am never,
never
going to downplay the quantifiable, anthropologically correct, historical facts that demonstrate the similarities between many east Asian states or pretend they don't exist.
I'm sorry if you think it perpetuates some stereotype that all Asians are just one homogenized group, but that doesn't mean the similarities aren't there on a global scale.
Post by
Squishalot
First of all, Greek philosophy is extremely relevant in the US. Set aside that the Greeks basically pioneered rational thought. The Socratic method of teaching is still used in many graduate programs, including every accredited law school in the country. The serenity prayer that they read at the beginning of NA/AA meetings is straight from Epictetus. I could list all the ways that Greek philosophy influences western culture, but I would be writing a book.
Now, how much of what you visit on a trip to the US are you going to link directly back to that philosophy? Notwithstanding, mind you, that the Socratic method is used in most major universities around the world.
And you implied I had listed multiple things, not just that.
Happy for you to list them out, but I don't think there'll be much point at this state.
There's nothing that I can say you won't shoot down with the same bull#$%^ argument you've been using. I'll point out a similarity, then you'll point out some other, non asian culture with the same similarity and list ten cultural differences, believing this somehow negates the similarity.
Well then, I can't say much more to you. You made an explicit example that Japanese and Korean foods are similar. I've provided numerous examples of why they're not. If you want to assume that two things are similar despite being completely different, I can't help that much.
I literally have no problem with it. You know why? Because it's true! I'm a westerner. I'm also an American, and my family is Irish. These things are all a part of my identity, but when somebody refers to my culture, in a broad sense, as Western, I wouldn't take offense to that.
I think I'm starting to see some of the reasons why you think the way you do, to be honest. You're from an Anglo-Saxon heritage, brought up in an inherently Anglo-Saxon society, believing in a religion strongly affiliated with your Anglo-Saxon heritage. Were you to have been raised in Hong Kong, for example, I think your views on broad-sweeping statements of what a culture is would be radically different. In particular, this:
I'm sorry if you think it perpetuates some stereotype that all Asians are just one homogenized group, but that doesn't mean the similarities aren't there on a global scale.
I think it's incorrect to perpetuate the stereotype. I'm not denying the historical similarities, I'm saying that you stereotyping those similarities into homogenised group is bad. If anything, you've been denying the cultural similarities between the East Asian countries and the rest of Asia. If I can repeat my core views in this thread so far:
I would think that you're much better off referring to their specific nationality, and not trying to refer to them by the 'continentality'.
Actually, Indians and Chinese have ridiculous amounts in common culturally, ranging from general household arrangements, value on education and wealth and career, the particular type of patriarchal society, and so on. To suggest that India has nothing in common with 'East Asia', casts significant doubt over the value of what you're saying.
I have no issues with the fact that there are some similarities in culture between many countries. I don't like the fact that you think that means that you can and/or should lump them all together under the heading of "Asian culture", in the same way that we wouldn't refer to things as "European culture".
... compared to:
What I'm saying is that if we got rid of the term and tried to force a new one on people, to placate those of of southwest Asia, it would offend even more people of East Asia, who think of their very unique culture as "Asian."
The fact that you're Irish, living in the USA, gives you absolutely no position to say anything about what those of us with any sort of Asian heritage think about our unique culture
s
. The only people to refer to us as Asians are non-Asians.(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##Squishalot##DELIM##
Post by
Gone
Ok I got half way through reading you're post and I came across something that I had to address, so I'm going to respond to this first.
I'm saying that you stereotyping those similarities into homogenised group is bad.
Every east Asian culture is diverse
, but that doesn't mean they lack overlying cultural similarities, such as writing style, influence of Confucianism, a certain type of family hierarchy, etc.
Saying they share overlying cultural similarities doesn't diminish the naunces of what makes their cultures unique.
I will fully admit that there is a great diversity among different Asian societies
All that I have maintained is that many east Asian countries share many cultural and historical similarities.
Again I am not saying that this means all east Asian cultures are lumped together
and if you try to imply that I was one more time I might scream.
Do you see a pattern here? I have never tried to imply that all Asians are a single homogenized group. I am literally dumbfounded that you have chosen to ignore everything I've said, and continue to keep quoting that first sentence I said to Elura three pages ago.
Now, how much of what you visit on a trip to the US are you going to link directly back to that philosophy? Notwithstanding, mind you, that the Socratic method is used in most major universities around the world.
Not the issue. You implied that it had no effect on the culture. And the effect things like that do have aren't always apparent.
Happy for you to list them out, but I don't think there'll be much point at this state.You used a plural.
I think I'm starting to see some of the reasons why you think the way you do, to be honest. You're from an Anglo-Saxon heritage, brought up in an inherently Anglo-Saxon society, believing in a religion strongly affiliated with your Anglo-Saxon heritage. Were you to have been raised in Hong Kong, for example, I think your views on broad-sweeping statements of what a culture is would be radically different. In particular, this:Now you're the one making generalizations, and it's not the first time you've done so.
The fact that you're Irish, living in the USA, gives you absolutely no position to say anything about what those of us with any sort of Asian heritage think about our unique cultures.
The only people to refer to us as Asians are non-Asians.
First of all, the bolded is bull^&*!. I lived in an area in Michigan for a while that had a huge Asian population. In most neighborhoods there were more Asians than whites. Plenty of them referred to themselves as Asian.
Second, being a specific race makes one more or less credible in an argument? I might $%^&ing puke...
As for the part about me being Irish, you brought it up. You asked if I would be offended if somebody identified my culture as part of a broader "westerner" culture, and I said no. You're talking out of your ass, especially if you think you speak for all Asians.
And, what you continue to fail to gleam, is that I was talking to EluraE about a different matter. She said the word Asian was offensive, and in an email brought it up in comparison with the words "Ch**k N***er and F**got. She wasn't making that a comparison, but that's what I took from it. My response, was in the thread, saying that people who were proud of their overlying Asian culture (and again, you don't speak for all Asians) might want to use the term.
This discussion had already come to an end.
You and I have been discussing something different, so don't try to bring up something I said to her, in a different debate, and act like it's a point I've been driving home this entire time.
Post by
Squishalot
You and I have been discussing something different, so don't try to bring up something I said to her, in a different debate, and act like it's a point I've been driving home this entire time.
Not as far as I was concerned. The quote I pulled in the last part of my post was in direct response to me
here
, and was stemmed from an earlier post in response to
you
, which was in response to:
The issue is that Asia =/= "China/Japan/Korea/Hong Kong/Vietnam", which is what most people consider 'Asian'.
So don't bring up some bull#$%^ about anything Elura may have emailed you separately (which I'm supposed to know about how, exactly?). We've been talking about the stereotype of "Asia" as being the parts associated with the eastern countries of Asia. As far as I'm concerned, we haven't moved from that topic.
Also, it's a shame you don't appreciate irony. Any sweeping generalisations I've been making in this discussion have been specifically to show you why it's bad to generalise.
Anyway, this is obviously not going anywhere, so I'm going to do something I should have done about a page and a half ago. Peace out.(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##Squishalot##DELIM##
Post by
Patty
Just a point of order from skim-reading the thread: it's easy to say France and England are very similar, because they are. Furthermore, it might be tempting to think that, because Western culture is, in many ways, similar, that other parts of the world must fall into similar umbrellas. However, in most recent memory there has been a degree of Americanisation in western European countries during the post-WW2 period that I don't think I have seen east Asia or Asia at large replicate (Although arguably, given time, the "Hallyu wave"
may
have a similar effect). For example, before rock and roll, local folk music was largely the favored music in much of Europe. Then pop, r&b and rock n' roll became favored genres.
Europe now has a political entity with significant power over much of Europe, the EU, and I don't think there is an equivalent "Asian Union". The cold war forced western powers to essentially unite, whereas Asia became divided. Basically, the conditions for more cultural homogenisation as seen in the west have not been met in modern Asia, so we simply cannot lump it together. Obviously western countries still have their own cultural differences, and often linguistic differences, but to nowhere near the extent of the differences in Asia.
TL;DR - It's almost impossible to compare Western cultural similarities to Asian ones when their histories and political backgrounds have been entirely different.
Post by
Gone
Squish, whether you realize it or not, you have been misrepresenting my argument here, and at some points even putting words in my mouth. Any animosity you might have picked up from me came out of my frustration with that.
My entire point basically boiled down to "Many far eastern countries share similar historical and cultural traits with each other." I don't think that this implies that all ethnically Asian countries are a homogenized group, nor do I think it perpetuates a stereotype. To me it's just stating a fact, one that you even agreed with at one point.
It seemed to me that you were trying to imply that I was perpetuating a stereotype and lumping all east Asian countries together with this. Most of what you kept quoting in regards to that matter was out of context or regarding a different discussion.
TL;DR - It's almost impossible to compare Western cultural similarities to Asian ones when their histories and political backgrounds have been entirely different.
I never based what I said off comparisons with western society. From the beginning I said that the similarities in east Asian cultures had roots that dated back thousands of years.
I'm taking a break from this thread. Gonna go watch True Blood and Dexter
Post by
612548
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Azazel
Pikey....i think it's time for a new question, since this is rapidly turning into de DotD thread...
This. Wasn't there a rule enforced in a previous one to not start debates?
Post by
Mike
#2 - As a child, what did you want to be when you grew up, and did you fulfill your dream, or come out on a totally different path?
Post by
Squishalot
I don't think that this implies that all ethnically Asian countries are a homogenized group, nor do I think it perpetuates a stereotype.
To be clear - I don't think you intend to perpetuate a stereotype. I think that the generic term 'Asian' perpetuates a false stereotype. I don't think that you're doing this intentionally, but to use a trivial analogy, it is very similar to using 'Americans' to describe everybody in North America. Ksero might not have too many issues with it, but it perpetuates a loss of identity and the amalgamation of Canada (being the less populous nation) with the US (being the more populous nation). The fact that where you lived people refer to themselves as Asians, actually highlights the loss of cultural identity that they've suffered living in a culture that perpetuates this 'Asian' stereotype.
I've never heard of a Canadian calling themselves an American. I've never heard of a Brit, or a Frenchman or an Italian introducing themselves as being Europeans, unless their conversation partner had never heard of their country. It makes me sad that anybody would identify as being Asian first, and (say) Korean second, and I think that's a byproduct of the stereotyping that comes with painting the whole region as being 'Asian'.
Anyway, I just wanted to clarify that I don't think you're trying to perpetuate a stereotype of any sort, only that I think that you are perpetuating it. Hope that clears things up between us.
Post by
Squishalot
#2 - As a child, what did you want to be when you grew up, and did you fulfill your dream, or come out on a totally different path?
I wanted to be a shopkeeper, because I saw people keep giving them money.
Then I wanted to run a bank, because I learned that's where all the money is stored.
Eventually, I realised that I wanted to be a consultant, so the shopkeepers and banks would give me
their
money, and somehow, I made it here.
Great idea for a topic, thanks Mike!(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##Squishalot##DELIM##
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