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WoD: Balanced storyline for both factions?
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Post by
RipperGand
Hello there. I'll try to make this post as little tl;dr as possible.
Basically, we've watched since Wrath of the Lich King a constant development in the lore of the Horde but little in the Alliance side, at least when we try to balance both.
In Wrath of the Lich King, we saw the events at the Wrathgate and Undercity, which were obviously aimed towards the Horde even though Alliance players participated in it, with no actual counterpart.
In cataclysm, we saw Tyrande and Malfurion's neutrality to Ashenvale being burnt and butchered by the Orcs; We saw Gilneas be invaded by the Forsaken; We saw Southshore be wiped out by the same; We saw Theramore be wiped out by the Horde, removing the most critical human nation in Kalimdor and killing a bunch of Alliance heroes, which include the night elf Pained and the famous General Marcus, from Stormwind, as well as driving a whole army to extinction; We saw the wipeout of the Alliance fleet at the hands of enthralled kraken (by Garrosh's forces); Speaking of Garrosh, this expansion and the next focus a big deal on him; We saw Sylvanas acquiring the Valkiries and march to Silverpine; It continues, but let's leave it here to avoid tl;dr'ing.
In Mists of Pandaria, we saw a whole expansion focused on Garrosh and his Horde. We saw an end-game raid located in the capital of the Horde; The Alliance nearly lost its prince; The Horde went through a hundred of metamorphosis, from a civil war, a rebellion, political conflicts to the actual crowning of a new Warchief; The Alliance merely sat there and watched it happen, while Varian merely spat out idle threats (he calls for his guardsmen and threatens to end the Horde - how, when there's the most powerful shaman, the Dark Lady, Lor'themar and the others there to stop him at the moment?). It also goes on and on, but once again, let's drop it there.
Now, what do we know of Warlords of Draenor so far? That Garrosh will set things in motion (because a whole expansion about him wasn't enough) and that we will meet legendary orcish leaders and characters, as it is depicted by the wallpapers and information that was released. Emphasis has been put on this race through the whole announcements, with the draenei playing the role of...
... being hit by a hundred catapults and being invaded, as we see in the trailer.
Isn't it time to balance stuff? I speak with
true neutrality
because I've been on both sides and have no actual faction pride. However, I do enjoy the story behind the Alliance (the houses of Nobles, the political corruption, the Defias, and so on and on) and saw it all come to a stall. I wish there was more development.
Sure, there has been SOME progress in the storyline of the Alliance. My point is not that there isn't any, but that it is not as much as the Horde's.
Remember, I'm talking about balance.(##RESPBREAK##)2060##DELIM##Sas148##DELIM##Moved to L&RP
Post by
Stabhorn
In the real timeline, the orcs invaded the Karabor and slaughtered many of the draenei. That was what was being depicted in the cinematic, except that it is the Iron Horde invading. I think it's a little to early to say that the Alliance isn't getting any balance, just from what was seen in the cinematic. And that wasn't the Horde invading; it was the bad guys.
Post by
RipperGand
And that wasn't the Horde invading; it was the bad guys.
They are still related to the orcish Horde, or so I believe. I don't know, I just think it'd be cool to see like... Alliance imperialism, leading an assault against Horde outposts and, for once, coming out victorious (considering it even lost Andorhal.). But like you said, it's a bit early, but still concerning.
Post by
TickleMeThrall
I agree with you; it would be nice to see the Alliance side develop more. Most develop has been Varian being the cool-headed leader of the group; take Blood in the Snow scenario, Varian get's the Ironforge leaders to work together. If Varian was who he was at WLK we would have a new BG, Battle for Orgrimmar (how awesome would that be?).
I feel Velen will have a real chance to shine in WoD; he is the leader of the Draenei and we will get to see real action with him, and possibly the N'aaru when the Burning Legion inevitably makes their presence in WoD.
Back to the topic, without the Horde there is no Alliance. The Horde is the crux of the Alliance otherwise they're trading partners at most. The Horde has to have a little more screen time than the Alliance otherwise the Horde wouldn't care. "Oh, Varian had a temper tantrum about the color of his bedsheets? We don't give a f..."
Post by
RipperGand
I agree with you; it would be nice to see the Alliance side develop more. Most develop has been Varian being the cool-headed leader of the group; take Blood in the Snow scenario, Varian get's the Ironforge leaders to work together. If Varian was who he was at WLK we would have a new BG, Battle for Orgrimmar (how awesome would that be?).
I feel Velen will have a real chance to shine in WoD; he is the leader of the Draenei and we will get to see real action with him, and possibly the N'aaru when the Burning Legion inevitably makes their presence in WoD.
Back to the topic, without the Horde there is no Alliance. The Horde is the crux of the Alliance otherwise they're trading partners at most. The Horde has to have a little more screen time than the Alliance otherwise the Horde wouldn't care. "Oh, Varian had a temper tantrum about the color of his bedsheets? We don't give a f..."
Huhuh! Varian is a moody fellow, but can be quite entertaining.
However, do not expect Velen to shine that much. Let's face it, he is a benevolent Light-worshiping oldie priest, the worst he will do is probably wag his finger and tell the orcs they shouldn't be naughty or the Boogeyman will eat them.
Then pat them on the head with a fatherly smile.
Post by
kemppy
In all honesty, I personally think that the alliance has changed greatly. I mean the dwarven race has the Dark Iron and three rulers. How much of a change up is that.
Post by
morginar
The best chanse for Alliance to get lore is removing the high king, and a lot less focus on three characters (Varian, Anduin and Jaina) and focus on the non-humans.
They seem to do that with giving Dreanai Lore something that is needed for that forgoten race.
And realy do I need to remind you that orc =/= horde. Kinda like Human =/= Alliance.
Or is Wrath a alliance expansion due to the humans in it? And brann.
Sure, there has been SOME progress in the storyline of the Alliance. My point is not that there isn't any, but that it is not as much as the Horde's.
By that you refer to when the horde races gets to be the bad guys and having their leaders and loveable NPC killed?
Becouse horde players like me do not like that at all. You can be the bad guys if you want. I have a desire to end the house of Wrynn and Proudmoore.
Post by
Skreeran
You may get less air time than the Horde, but at least you're not the frickin' villains!
I'm still super butthurt about how Blizzard has made the Horde the straight up villains of the game, starting with Wrath of the Lich King and the Wrathgate and the Broken Front and concluding with Garrosh going straight up over the top "I want to kill all non-orcs" evil.
Post by
morginar
You may get less air time than the Horde, but at least you're not the frickin' villains!
I'm still super butthurt about how Blizzard has made the Horde the straight up villains of the game, starting with Wrath of the Lich King and the Wrathgate and the Broken Front and concluding with Garrosh going straight up over the top "I want to kill all non-orcs" evil.
If you want to add Keal'Thas to that list you can go back to TBC.
Post by
Rankkor
Basically, we've watched since Wrath of the Lich King a constant development in the lore of the Horde but little in the Alliance side, at least when we try to balance both.
Ohh really? this should be good.
In Wrath of the Lich King, we saw the events at the Wrathgate and Undercity, which were obviously aimed towards the Horde even though Alliance players participated in it, with no actual counterpart.
So?
while the horde had the wrathgate and undercity events, you guys had:
A: a major villain that is mainly an Alliance threat, he originated with the alliance, his entire history revolved around the alliance, and was a more personal foe for the alliance than the horde, given that Arthas razed multiple alliance kingdoms.
B: Multiple lore and background added to the humans, the dwarves and the gnomes thanks to the titan lore that established their common past as Seed Races in the city of ulduar.
C: The return of Muradin Bronzebeard (Badass extraordinaire)
D: The return of Dalaran, a major alliance capital that had been absent from the game.
E: The entire story was led by a major former alliance figure (Tirion).
In cataclysm, we saw Tyrande and Malfurion's neutrality to Ashenvale being burnt and butchered by the Orcs; We saw Gilneas be invaded by the Forsaken; We saw Southshore be wiped out by the same; We saw Theramore be wiped out by the Horde, removing the most critical human nation in Kalimdor and killing a bunch of Alliance heroes, which include the night elf Pained and the famous General Marcus, from Stormwind, as well as driving a whole army to extinction; We saw the wipeout of the Alliance fleet at the hands of enthralled kraken (by Garrosh's forces); Speaking of Garrosh, this expansion and the next focus a big deal on him; We saw Sylvanas acquiring the Valkiries and march to Silverpine; It continues, but let's leave it here to avoid tl;dr'ing.
So.... you're focusing on the defeats that the alliance had. How about the return of malfurion, the return of the gilneans, the return of the wildhammers, the Dark Irons joining the alliance, the alliance invading practically every horde starting zone in the game, the razing of taurajo, the desolation of southern barrens, the desolation of thousand needles, the alliance pushing into aszhara, Varian going from just "A" leader in the alliance to "THE" leader of the alliance, and speaking of varian, cataclysm, and MoP made him 90% the big central focus of the entire story. It continues but lets leave it here to avoid TL;DR'ing.
In Mists of Pandaria, we saw a whole expansion focused on Garrosh and his Horde
Focused on the DOWNFALL of the horde. Left that important detail out man.
We saw an end-game raid located in the capital of the Horde
And you're complaining about that? o_O you get to invade our capital for the second time, and this makes you unhappy? do you have any idea what would many horde players give to be able to canonically set foot in one of YOUR cities to cause some damage?
The Alliance nearly lost its prince
Boo-hoo he got better (as if blizzard would kill a teenager on-screen on a T-rated game)
meanwhile we lost nazgrim, we nearly lost vol'jin, we lost our presence in dalaran, we nearly lost our capital, we lost the war with the alliance, less than 15 min after the expansion begins we lose yet another gunship (this is the 8th one now, I'm actually scared of getting on one of those if it means its gonna blow up spectacularly upon its introduction) we lost Zaela to character derailment, while we're at it, we also lost the dragonmaw.
What were you saying about losing things?
The Horde went through a hundred of metamorphosis, from a civil war, a rebellion, political conflicts to the actual crowning of a new Warchief
It wasn't a metamorphosis for the good. I got to sit and watch through the past 3 expansions how the band of noble savages I joined back in TBC, the honorable horde from Warcraft 3, become a band of murderers and thugs, then a band of looters and pillagers, and then an imperialistic xenophobic dictatorship.
AND YOU THINK THIS IS A GOOD THING?
At least be happy your alliance is, always has been, and always will be, the "Captain America" faction (Straight from the mouth of Chris Metzen)
The Alliance merely sat there and watched it happen
Hmm no, the alliance sat there and WON THE FRIKKING WAR against the horde.
while Varian merely spat out idle threats (he calls for his guardsmen and threatens to end the Horde - how, when there's the most powerful shaman, the Dark Lady, Lor'themar and the others there to stop him at the moment?). It also goes on and on, but once again, let's drop it there.
Right, its not like the alliance has a full army out there while the horde is in a state of civil unrest, the majority of its forces decimated, and its military might battered and bruised......... ohhh wait.
It also goes on but once again, lets drop it here.
Now, what do we know of Warlords of Draenor so far? That Garrosh will set things in motion (because a whole expansion about him wasn't enough) and that we will meet legendary orcish leaders and characters, as it is depicted by the wallpapers and information that was released. Emphasis has been put on this race through the whole announcements
You seem to be forgetting that the focus is in these orcish figures TO KILL THEM. Meanwhile, the alliance gets massive focus on the draenei, AND THEY GET TO LIVE.
You may get less air time than the Horde, but at least you're not the frickin' villains!
I'm still super butthurt about how Blizzard has made the Horde the straight up villains of the game, starting with Wrath of the Lich King and the Wrathgate and the Broken Front and concluding with Garrosh going straight up over the top "I want to kill all non-orcs" evil.
agreed >_<
Post by
Nulgar
It wasn't a metamorphosis for the good. I got to sit and watch through the past 3 expansions how the band of noble savages I joined back in TBC, the honorable horde from Warcraft 3, become a band of murderers and thugs, then a band of looters and pillagers, and then an imperialistic xenophobic dictatorship.
AND YOU THINK THIS IS A GOOD THING?
I just have to quote this. And write it down.
Post by
RipperGand
you guys had:
you get to invade our capital for the second time, and this makes you unhappy? do you have any idea what would many horde players give to be able to canonically set foot in one of YOUR cities to cause some damage?
your alliance
I speak with true neutrality because I've been on both sides and have no actual faction pride. However, I do enjoy the story behind the Alliance (the houses of Nobles, the political corruption, the Defias, and so on and on) and saw it all come to a stall.
When you started playing with your orc in TBC, I was already playing with my undead warlock. I started off and "grew" as a Hordie. I only changed in late WoTLK because I always like to play the two sides of games (like the Empire and the Republic, in SWTOR), and so my human paladin was born, and others came along.
The thing is, you're using the argument "it changed for worse". Well, but it did change. Was the civil was positive for the Horde? No, but it happened. Regardless of being good or bad, there WAS activity. And even if we focus on the good<->bad scheme, it's nothing compared to the loss of a whole nation (Theramore) and the heroes the Horde lost are nothing compared to what the Alliance lost (remember I'm neutral and I'm talking in third person).
Maybe in this expansion if Velen was forced to adopt a lawful evil attitude to slay orcs or something which would end up turning him into an antagonist (just imagine, I'm not saying it's a possibility) then maybe we'd have it balanced - we'd be killing Velen, draenei, maybe destroying the Exodar or something - and notice that this is not positive for the Alliance. But it'd still happen, and it'd still balance things.
EDIT: I actually lied, I changed to the Alliance with the creation of my human death knight in the early WoTLK. I had forgotten about that.
Also, I'd like to point something out:
Blizzard themselves said they ran out of time to work on the storyline of the Alliance during Catalysm.
Blizzard themselves said this. Do not forget that the creators of the game themselves admitted it was unbalanced.
Post by
Skreeran
I'd give up three cities to not be the bad guys.
Post by
Levarus
You may get less air time than the Horde, but at least you're not the frickin' villains!
Horde aren't villains. The Alliance are the villains.
Post by
Skreeran
You may get less air time than the Horde, but at least you're not the frickin' villains!
Horde aren't villains. The Alliance are the villains.That's easy to say, sure.
But look at the entirety of MoP.
Post by
RipperGand
You may get less air time than the Horde, but at least you're not the frickin' villains!
Horde aren't villains. The Alliance are the villains.
How so?
Post by
Adamsm
Leveling wise...there will be; Alliance works with the Draenei, Horde works with the Frostwolves.
End game? Probably not; will probably still end up working along side Thrall as he deals with the Warlords and Garrosh cadre.
Post by
Levarus
Because the Alliance are bad guys who stepped into the Dark Portal and put Orcs into internment camps. Horde is no longer evil as they rebel against a leader who actually represents what the Horde
is
, savage and warbringing.
If you ask my opinion, the Horde and Alliance, as of the invention of the "True Horde", are identical.
Post by
Rankkor
Leveling wise...there will be; Alliance works with the Draenei, Horde works with the Frostwolves.
End game? Probably not; will probably still end up working along side Thrall as he deals with the Warlords and Garrosh cadre.
I dunno man, it feels like the complete opposite from where I'm standing. Velen is looking like the major player for the expansion. Bear in mind a few things to see why I believe this.
A: Thrall is not listed as a major player in this expansion, his story centers around his interaction with his ancestors, but that's about it. Velen is listed as a major player, and his story centers around actually fighting the iron horde.
B: The Iron Horde's objectives are NOT the extermination of the frostwolves, at best they'd be an optional side-objective, but their main purpose is the extermination of the draenei, and then marching through the dark portal. Chasing after orc tribes that didn't joined them is a trivial objective for them. While the alliance deals with the main bad guys (Iron Horde) Horde players deal with a minor secondary threat (Thunderlord Clan, who apparently also didn't joined the Iron Horde)
C: Garrosh is NOT the main focus of the expansion and even if thrall deals with him, it still will be a very minor plot detail. I wont even be surprised if Garrosh is dealt in a questchain rather than a raid. Though to make it more fair to both sides without making him too big, he could also be dealt as a boss in a scenario or a 5man at best.
D: Again, this alone gleamed from the trailers, this looks like a very centric Draenei Expansion.
Thrall doesn't even show up on the trailer, or major player lineup. You mark my words bro, this is gonna be a velen-centric expansion.
Post by
Lordplatypus
From everything we see, once again and orc is the centerpiece,
Grom Hellscream
The same idiot i spent half of the orc campaign saving from his own @#$%ups.
He narates the whole thing, he's the last guy you see in the trailer, all but 3 of the characters on the site are orcs.
Trust me, the Draenei are just a second thought to keep alliance from leaving altogether.
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