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Don't Rain Fire on my Frost Parade
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Post by
OscarDivine
My observation of forums is that it undergoes cycles, like a hormonal teenager. In this particular forum, the cycle of topics goes a little bit like this, and in no particular order:
Is my Spec ok?!
Help my DPS
Something about Spell Hit or Crit
How do I use my mage to ...
Is my Spec ok?!
Stat A vs Stat B
Frost Vs. Fire
Frost Vs. Fire
Is my Spec ok?!
Miscellaneous
Rinse, Lather, repeat. I wonder how many iterations of this we've done at this point...
I'd like to preface this post with a few quick reminders.
FIRST and Foremost: Personal Talent with your particular spec and toon is IMMENSELY greater in importance than any Theorycraft calculation or Super-Mega-Ultra-Epic-Gear set you happen to be touting, and how big you
think
your junk is.
SECOND: The GREAT majority of raiders won't ever even see Hyjal or even the end of TK, so this post doesn't apply to you guys. The arguments change for Frost mages as progression changes, as it should for any other mage as the fights change. Since only a relatively small percentage of ALL players will ever raid anything higher than SSC/TK, this post pertains to the vast majority of WoW players who raid as deep into progression as SSC/TK as well as for those who don't raid at all and enjoy PVE with instances, heroics, and the like.
THIRD: This post is regarding Frost mages PVE, so please refrain from replying with XYZ about PVP, resilience, penetration, etc.
FOURTH: In any 5/10/25-man instance or raid as well as any quest is to complete an objective. In dungeons that objective is usually to kill. If you're doing it as frost, fire, arcane, or any combination thereof, you're doing your job and you can do it well as any of the above. For questing, I believe frost has strong arguments for being the best because of inherent slowing and survivability talents, but this would be an entirely different thread.
So, I'd like to address the issue of Frost mages and DPS in the PVE setting and hopefully lay to rest the BIG HAIRY MYTH that Frost mages are undoubtedly inferior to fire mages in the raid setting. I know this thread will cause arguing, and fire mages screaming/yelling/starting a $%^&ing match about how much better they think they are... Yadda yadda yadda. The objective of this thread is to be informative to those who are making a decision between frost and fire,
not to bash another spec
.
I welcome all criticism and especially testimony from frost mages who have converted to fire and find an ENORMOUS difference in their DPS. Please, I would love to hear your stories and arguments, but please qualify your statements by including what level of raiding you are doing, approximate level of gear you had/have, what your boss fight DPS was/is, what spell rotations you use/used, and why you switched.
I urge all of you to experiment with each spec to find out which one you have the most fun with. Why else do we pay each month to play this game? Have fun. My impetus for this post is to stop people from specing out from Frost simply because some fire mage said that fire is better, or that some mathematical calcuation somewhere said that frost can't do the DPS that other classes can. Choose the spec you LIKE. The reasoning behind taking on a spec because someone else said you
might
do more damage than what you'd prefer is like taking on a job because the money is good and not because you enjoy it (I PROMISE you'll hate your life if you hate what you do for 40 hours a week). Ideally, you'd like to pick a job you enjoy that lets you make a good living and pay your bills. The same is true of playing WoW. If you don't enjoy it, what's the point? Worse off, you're then PAYING to not enjoy it!!! If you enjoy playing Fire, by all means, Spec Fire! But if you enjoy playing frost and you only respec'ed fire because of the idea that you "might" do more damage, make sure you do a real side-by-side comparison before converting over and certainly don't stay fire if you aren't doing any more damage or aren't enjoying it.
To qualify my opinion on this topic, I play an Alliance (Human) Deep Frost mage, Aulora, on the Realm Alextrasza. See my armory link below:
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Alexstrasza&n=Aulora
I may not necessarily be in full raid gear all the time, but here's the quick rundown of the important stuff: Raid Buffed: ~1100-1200 frost damage depending on whether or not I get a shammy in my group. ;-) Hit capped, with ~22-26% crit, also depending on group compliment. Enough stam not to get one-shotted, and enough Mana + pots + gems not to OOM.
I currently raid early SSC and TK as well as Kara and ZA and whatever is in between. I have not raided deeper into progression, but there are many frost mages who do so and very successfully. With my current gear and spec, I output 1100-1200 DPS on most boss fights without a problem (DPS Spikes to 1500 or 1600 with icy veins, trinkets, and elemental) and can consistently reach the top 3 (the other two consistently being a warlock and an elemental shaman) on the Recount meters, often reaching #1. There are other mages in my guild who play fire and they do great DPS as well, but with comparable gear, we are very close in DPS but I can match them or pass them in DPS. Outside of my guild, when I run heroics, I'm usually #1 on DPS, though when I play with other players with significantly better talent/gear than I have, I drop down the meter accordingly.
My spell rotation may vary depending on the boss I'm fighting, but I never stop clicking or casting unless I'm silenced or otherwise unable to DPS. My Water elemental is up at least 4 times during a boss fight and if I'm running for whatever reason, I'm ice lancing or fire blasting the whole way.
Now, to my knowledge, it doesn't matter if you're Frost Spec, Fire spec, Arcane Spec or if you're just whipping your wand around; If you're putting out the DPS you need, who the hell CARES what spec you are. Do your job, enjoy your job, and do it well. Frost mages CAN DPS as well as Fire mages and given equal gear and dependent on personal talent, may even do MORE DPS than Fire mages. *GASP!* Yes, I did say "MORE DPS".
Moral of this Story: Frost WORKS. Use it if you like it and you can still top out a DPS chart if that's your thing.
If you're a Frost Mage and can post what kind of DPS you're doing, I'd love to know so I can either improve my own DPS or help you improve yours. Thanks WoWHead community!
Edit: I realize that people are mis-reading this post. It is NOT a "Frost is better than Fire" post. I just feel that Frost is the Green Eggs and Ham to WoW mages.
If you plan to recount your story as a fire mage of how you out DPS'ed a Frost mage, then please refrain.
Post by
JamesKilton
People have done the theorycrafting many times over. Deep Fire builds (given same gear, same skill, perfect rotations, etc) will always beat Frost in damage, and both Fire and Frost will beat Arcane, though that spec gets pretty strong with 2-piece T5, it's still a massive mana hog.
The only thing you've said in this huge rant is "I have good gear, and I know how to play a Frost mage." Good for you, I guess.
We ALL know that Frost works. Fire is mathematically better, but we all know that end-game raiding is a lot more than just pure DPS output, which means that a better skilled Frost player will out DPS a lesser skilled Fire player.
There's nothing you've said that we don't already know 10 times over.
Post by
Ethix
I did about 200 more dps and 250000 more dmg than a far better geared frost mage on mags last night. I am 2/48/11, so you can play however you want bro but facts are facts.
Post by
OscarDivine
My "rant"was there to encourage people to stay frost if they enjoy it and not to leave because they think it "doesn't work". I used myself as an example, and, IMO, my gear isn't that great. It's gear that practically any mage can get by doing some heroics, farming, and a little bit of raiding.
Please read the whole post before making your comments. Note: I did say that the post was directed toward the great majority of raiders, not END GAME raiders, but yes, Frost can be great end game as well. As well, Theorycrafting and math is one thing, but player style and execution are a completely different thing.
Your comments only prove my point that people are judging frost based on mathematics and not what they can do with it. I was simply urging people to stick with what they like and if Frost is it, then be happy! I'm glad that the mathematicians of WoW decided to crunch numbers, but who cares if you'd rather play frost than fire.
I think you entirely missed the point of that post.
Post by
OscarDivine
I did about 200 more dps and 250000 more dmg than a far better geared frost mage on mags last night. I am 2/48/11, so you can play however you want bro but facts are facts.
You're a talented man then.
I think we're all misreading this post.
I'm not saying "FROST IS BETTER THAN FIRE".
I AM saying, "IF YOU LIKE FROST, PLAY IT! IT CAN STILL BE GREAT!"
Post by
Discover
/cheer because I like the title of your topic :)
Also, I just wanted to quote this part of your post for others to reread to save us all some headaches:
The GREAT majority of raiders won't ever even see Hyjal or even the end of TK,
so this post doesn't apply to you guys
.
Post by
storyr
I did about 200 more dps and 250000 more dmg than a far better geared frost mage on mags last night. I am 2/48/11, so you can play however you want bro but facts are facts.
so he maybe wasn't as good as you.
I have done 200 more dps and 250000 more dmg than a better geared fire mage on mag before.
player skill comes into effect as well. Just because you beat out a frost mage that is better geared than you doesn't make it a fact that fire is better than frost.
Especially considering all your threads on this board, no offense but only 25 days ago you were asking questions about breaking into heroics, and less than 20 you did kara for the first time.
raiding for less than 20 days hardly makes you an expert on a raiding mage, regardless of how well read you are about it.
Although I am curious and would love to see your armory (not for nitpicking, out of general curiousity).
Post by
mageypoo
I did about 200 more dps and 250000 more dmg than a far better geared frost mage on mags last night. I am 2/48/11, so you can play however you want bro but facts are facts.
Its said over and over in the mage forums its how the toon is played, and skill of player. last time i had a fire mage in Gruul's Lair. i out dpsed him 200+ and way more over all dam. both me and him was in crafted gear. so a gear was close. so please just every one enjoy what your play. have fun with the game drop the damage metters. =)~ and just play the game. lol
Post by
OscarDivine
Oh thank GOD ppl are starting to see the point of this post...
Post by
Ethix
You're a talented man then.
I think we're all misreading this post.
I'm not saying "FROST IS BETTER THAN FIRE".
I AM saying, "IF YOU LIKE FROST, PLAY IT! IT CAN STILL BE GREAT!"
Sorry man, I didn't read your whole post. I was frost pre-bc and I loved it, but you can't really put up those high numbers unless your fire.
Also, you can easily watch tv, and talk on aim and do fine as fire. All you do is push one button and occasionally have to use scorch. I just have all my trinkets macro'd to fireball heh.
Post by
storyr
You're a talented man then.
I think we're all misreading this post.
I'm not saying "FROST IS BETTER THAN FIRE".
I AM saying, "IF YOU LIKE FROST, PLAY IT! IT CAN STILL BE GREAT!"
Sorry man, I didn't read your whole post. I was frost pre-bc and I loved it, but you can't really put up those high numbers unless your fire.
Also, you can easily watch tv, and talk on aim and do fine as fire. All you do is push one button and occasionally have to use scorch. I just have all my trinkets macro'd to fireball heh.
Then I stand corrected about your history of raiding as a mage. But regardless, pre-BC mage was played a bit different, sure same spells, but talents (obviously). You are no longer #1 on dps, and frost talents have been updated accordingly.
You'd also never step foot in MC specced fire unless you wanted the boot :P
Post by
JamesKilton
So to sum up the entirety of OscarDivine's post:
"If you're having fun and being useful in a raid / party, do what you want."
What's the point of your post again? I don't see a single thing even remotely new here.
Post by
OscarDivine
Short version, yeah sure. But you're still missing the issue. People sometimes blindly spec out of frost into fire
ass
uming they'll get an automatic boost in their DPS and
ass
ume it happens just because you throw fire instead of ice.
As nice as it is to hear how well informed you are JamesKilton, there may be others who aren't. Please let them benefit from a condensed version I've tried to contribute. If I've wasted your time then I apologize. Some of us frost mages out here do like to hear someone cheer for our side from time to time though.
Post by
Frill
Haha like the idea of the post but I just wanna add that in my guild the mages are generally on top of dmg/dps meters regardless wether we specc 40/0/21, deep fire or deep frost ..
I'v seen the craziest critts on BT bosses as 40/0/21 but then again I haven't been fire for a while .. Still the main issue with this specc as some might confirm is the major threatspikes it can dish out - I mean 5x 7-8k critts in a row in the start of a fight does make your tank throw fiesty comments at ya ..
Post by
112909
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
nickseng
OMG, i can't believe no one commented on the most important part of the post!
if you're just whipping your wand around; If you're putting out the DPS you need
You HAVE to tell me how you top the DPS charts with a wand. :P
But I agree. Although I think you're kinda overreacting. Most of the really casual players won't probably read this forums. Besides, I think they're already playing whatever way they want.
And as for us, I trust most (certainly not all) of us are wise and mature enough to know in Theories, for the most part, aren't always reflective of actual output in action. And the difference in lower level raids in minimal at best.
If you think about it, we're one of the luckiest classes around, in that our function is simple, whatever spec we have. DPS. If we're fire, we DPS. If we're Frost, we're DPS. If we're Arcane, we're DPS, but we're also a little bit more awesome. Just cause.
So cool down, and don't worry so much about it. Let the high-end raiders and min-maxers worry about highest theoretical damage. Which happens to be fire. ;)
Post by
nickseng
Arcane - Unbelievable dps (assuming you have a shadow priest in your group, otherwise it has to be a really short fight if you want to save your mana pool) that in my opinion beats the other two builds by far when it comes to damage.
Lack of surviveability, both mana and health points of the build
, makes your mage dependable.
Just a little correction, Arcane mages tend to have the highest mana pool compared to the other 2 specs. It's just that we use it up much faster. :)
Post by
112186
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
145269
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
XilDarkz
I have yet to be outDPSed by a Fire Mage in the same gear level; it seems that Frost is winning wherever they are skilled and Fire just looks good on paper; implementation is key. And of course, the Arcane mages have been failing miserably pre-T5.
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