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Raiding Successfully
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Post by
crspyofarthas
ahh ok thx :D
i request a sticky please :D
Post by
95537
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Post by
125410
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
95537
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Post by
Celdhyrean
I didn't comment much on the values because those i can check weren't extravagant and it's very subjective anyway. But if you're requesting it :)
Moonkin : i think spellhit should be capped when going to Gruul/Mag. It's acceptable to start Kara without being capped, but that's it, and spellhit is quite easy to come by (on cloth items).
Also i really wouldn't put a spell crit % requirement. Theorycrafting says that at no point in gearing is there a point where 1 crit rating >= 1 dmg or haste or hit. It comes with the gear but shouldn't be a focus.
Which in turns might allow us to up a bit the spell dmg requirements. I'd say 700 for Kara, 900 for Gruul/Mag, and 1050 for early T5
(also, i'd use "moon" for moonkins rather than "boom", but that's just because i dislike the boomkin/doomchicken selfcongratulatory tone, it's like meeting a blue/green geared PvP-wannabe named "ikillallalliance" or something like that)(and i am a moonkin myself for the record, i'm not dissing the spec itself :p)
For resto druids, i'd up +heal at 1300-1400 for Karazhan/heroics. At 1000 you're just not going to be able to heal heroics, and might be enough for Karazhan with 3 healers but there again you wouldn't do your share of the work. Ok for the other raid level requirements).
Post by
Celdhyrean
Irather than making new 70 dings give up wow because they dont have half the stats for lurkerJust a comment on that. I do agree that requirements are very difficult to quantify and shouldn't be taken as a bible and whatever (taking a green geared guy in T6 content with 24 other well geared guys is certainly feasible, and there are less extreme examples).
However, for a progression raid, everyone has to be at a minimum level, you can't half-ass it.
If that new-dinged 70 sees the requirements and just stops playing, then it just means that he didn't want to invest himself enough in PvE. Building up gear has become quite easy now, as long as you're able to do Karazhan. Enchants and correct gemming go a very long way to get you to appropriate stats too. For example, full spell damage enchants mean something like +157 dmg (i might have forgotten one, but i think the number still speaks for itself) : that's a whole level of raiding requirements gained just by enchanting.
Entering wow, dinging 70 and thinking you're ready to go and fight Lurker right away is wrong. As the other one said : "YOU ARE NOT PREPARED !"
Jokes aside, that's why i dislike requirements threads, you'll have two type of people in there :
- those measuring what kind of gear you'd be able to get without too many difficulties from the previous level that would allow you to perform well in that environment, with equally geared people
- people who think "i did it whith that so that's enough" without necessarily looking at the circumstances (all people raid-experimented, some overgeared, perhaps tank and healer to really caricature thigs, ...)
I'm obviously in the first category as my biased description of both shows, and i don't have a problem with the second category either, as long as positive/negative elements to those numbers are well understood and made clear.
Post by
125410
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Post by
Celdhyrean
I hadn't seen the request for "max" translations.
Concerning spell hit, everyone maxes at 202. Then it depends on talents, knowing that most classes should take the +hit talents. There are a few specs that can consider dropping them once they get enough from normal casting gear, but since that's mostly advanced raiding level it probably doesn't belong here.
- moonkins : 152 (3/3 BoP)
- warlocks : 202.
There is a talent to acquire +hit, but only for affliction spells. Since shadowbolts will represent ~50% of the dps of an affliction warlock, even they should strive for those 202. Suppression is only a crutch to allow minimal misses on part of your spells while you're getting there, ie a talent that you'll use while gearing up in T4 content only.
As i'm not playing the others i'm not quite sure of the "usual" raiding spec, but from what i remember, shadow priests usually have the +10% to hit (~72 hit) and elem shamans should have from +6% to +9% (120 and 84, mostly +9% i guess)
Post by
Aurlon
You can do more with less provided you know what you're doing. Yes, you *can* run ZA with 1500 to heals. Will you be dead weight and something the rest of the raid will have to make up for? Definitely
Your healing requirements throughout the guide and in your replies are way off.
+1500 healing is easily enough to be successful in ZA. Not the timed run, ofcourse, but otherwise you can easily clear ZA with 1500 without being a hinderance to your team-mates.
You state that resto druid's should have 350 mp/5 unbuffed in T5 content. That is completely inaccurate. With Illidan on farm I only have +350 mp/5 RAID buffed. Having more is overkill and i'm actaully trying to reduce that number to gain more healing power.
There are other mistakes, such as Holydins needing 150 mp/5. Holydins don't want anything over 100 mp/5, past that they should be stacking spell-crit.
Good guide, needs to be more accurate in certian parts however.
Post by
125410
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Celdhyrean
+1500 healing is easily enough to be successful in ZADepends on the class naturally, but let's suppose druid. i had 1500 heal at the middle of Karazhan, ie 1500 in half epics, half blues (but fully enchanted).
I found this
old profile from warcrafter
, change the weapon to Gavel of Light for example, chest and gloves to something blue and you'll be around 1500, ie you have an idea of what level of gear you need to be at 1500. Ok, you still can do things.
Now let's suppose that your tanks are also in half-blues/low-epics. Is it going to work well for ZA ? Add some dps with the same level of gear...
It won't. They might be able to kill one boss or two with difficulties, but it is clear that they'll be undergeared for the instance.
As has been said repetitively, experienced players with good coordination and skills will be able to make do with less. Still, considering the average population, would you get in a pick-up ZA raid where all people are geared that way ? Would you feel confident about it ? I certainly wouldn't.
Post by
Sakkura
But no, I refuse to acknowledge that armor has more precedence than any of the avoidance or stamina (aka effective health) stats for a Warrior. Never have I heard of dropping a piece of gear for the lack of
armor
of one piece over another. Dodge, Def, Parry, even Stamina - but never armor. Armor is for Druids.
Yes it is a value that we use for tanking, but not something I've ever heard of any Warrior putting above any other tanking stat he has. There's room for 3 stats up there, and Armor doesn't fall under the "I'd drop this for this" category.
Armor and stamina together combine to produce your effective health. Effective health is the most important stat for a tank on most progression boss attempts. Hence, armor would certainly be more important than dodge or (rofl) block rating.
The reason you rarely take one item over another because of armor is that armor is much more closely linked to item level and rarity than any other stat. The only exceptions are a few items here and there that convert some of their stat budget into more armor, and this is most frequent on druid items (
Felsteel Helm
and the like being the rare exceptions).
So usually you would be picking the item with the higher item level anyway; but that doesn't mean armor isn't an important stat. Far, far more important than some ridiculous block rating.
Post by
109094
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Post by
Sakkura
he never said it was unimportant, just that it wasnt the deciding factor when picking the item.
Well armor could quite easily be the deciding factor when choosing a piece of the felsteel set, or the rep ring from karazhan, or the 2.4 badge ring. All these are excellent options at their respective gear levels.
Post by
Feanora
I strongly disagree with your "suggested numbers" for rogues. It's been an ongoing discussion on the rogue forums as to guidelines, and the consensus is that it's misleading and potentially harmful to newer players to have a cutoff for stats that they have to reach. Rogue specs vary a great deal, which can change stats a great deal as well, and there's many effective ways to gear that will achieve the same amount of dps.
That said, if any rogue attempted to join one of my kara runs with less than 150 (~15% with talents) hit rating, I'd laugh in his face. And you say 2000 AP to do ZA/T5 content; I'm currently in almost full T6 gear and I don't have 2000 AP yet. Could just be that I'm a baddie, but you can interpret that how you will.
Post by
125410
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Post by
Philmckraken
EDIT: 102.4% avoidance on a pala O_o.... Your lucky to have 45%
Mine is 103.2% with Holy shield up. Since I have the libram that adds 5% block when I use HS, that equals 68.2% passive avoidance. That's not "lucky," it's standard for MT in upper Kara, any my particular gear setup is nonstandard, as far as what you'll see in any "guide." Oh, and I don't have the +dodge enchant on my cloak.
All but one piece of gear is blue, all obtained in regular dungeons and heroics. Stick to posting about classes you know.
Post by
Aurlon
Sigh... You even quoted it. I'll do my best to make it blatantly apparent.
I'm not going to coddle nubbies by telling them "Yah, sure! You can do it! Just have a fist full of hope and bucket full of dreams!" No. It doesn't work that way. Gear matters
Gear matters. Skill matters more. If this guide is aimed at the "complete newbie", then your comments are appropriate. Personally I don't see the point in trying to educate such people, they won't listen anyway.
I took this as a useful guide for someone looking to go into raiding but who has at least two brain cells to rub together. For such a person, clearing ZA in epics and the odd blue (+1500 healing) is easily possible. I'm not saying they wont wipe once or twice, it'll be tough. Gear is there to make it easier but it is by no means a substitute for a skilled player.
Simple fact is, you choose what stats you want to raid with - these are numbers that raid leaders like to see when they are inviting for given content.
No, the simple fact is that these stats are massively inaccurate (read: too high). Please don't take my comments as offensive, they were never meant as such. Incorrect information however, is no use to anyone.
Post by
Celdhyrean
I consider 1500 healing to be far from epics + odd blue (see my previous post, 5 blues and a T2 piece), and that those requirements you don't ask of the healer you compensate for on the tank or dps to make it work. I honestly don't believe that a tank in half blues and lower half of Kara epics is going to have enough gear to survive Nalorrak for example (unless he has healers able to pick up the slack through high mana regeneration AND dps able to kill the boss rapidly)
Such guidelines are meant to be considered for the whole raid, ie a full raid with all classes just at the required minimum. Not a full T4-T5 raid with 1 1500 healer in the middle.
And again, if you don't like the stats, post the ones you think are better and argue them instead of just flaming. Personnaly i'd rather up the stats i saw (ie for classes i know) than lower them. It's meant to be a cooperative work to help everyone, not a display of arrogance on Ray's part.
Post by
Aurlon
Such guidelines are meant to be considered for the whole raid, ie a full raid with all classes just at the required minimum. Not a full T4-T5 raid with 1 1500 healer in the middle.
I am generally considering it from the PoV of the raid as a whole, but tanks in particular provide the biggest boost to the raid if their gear is above average. Many guild's have tank priority for this very reason. Number of bosses were high DPS is a must? Small. Number of fights where you can compensate for weak healing with high mitigation/avoidance? Large.
And again, if you don't like the stats, post the ones you think are better and argue them instead of just flaming. Personnaly i'd rather up the stats i saw (ie for classes i know) than lower them. It's meant to be a cooperative work to help everyone, not a display of arrogance on Ray's part.
If you read my post above I have. Like I said, my comments are not a flame, but presenting fiction as fact is not helping anyone. I won't post what numbers I think a T4 resto-druid should have because i'm not a T4 resto-druid. I can tell you however, that the numbers presented across all levels (mp/5, mana and +healing) are too high.
I'll say it again, this is not a flame. I'm not out to get the OP, but before posting such an article make sure the facts are correct.
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