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Powershifting- huh?
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Post by
146119
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Post by
144872
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Post by
Serai
rake, the druids form of rend
altough the damage and scaling isnt as crappy as rend is, its just that it scales much worse than shred when it already had a worse base dmg
anyway, you only use 5cp rip when either you got bumper over 4cp with a crit of when you were at 4cp, rip was still up
Post by
109094
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161029
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109094
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Post by
Celdhyrean
Nabterayl's sticky is still actual. The only recent change was that less mobs are bleed immune.
Rake and FB shouldn't be used, there's always something better to use your energy on (be it only mangle/shred even if you're at 5CP with a rip still running)
Post by
121787
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109094
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Post by
Lightrain
Great info! And I didn't get flamed for being wrong on a couple points(sorry for the druid noobness). It's been a while since I read the sticky.(note to do so.)
Also, seeing as the use of 4cp rip is very viable, and more DPE, if you are in a MAX DPS situation, for a short period of time, a powershifted FB would be viable then wouldn't it? Especially when procing trinkets and such for a high dps stage.
Yes, you do go oom fast if you abuse it and powershift for normal dps, and you do use up a lot of energy, but I think it is viable for MAX dps situations for short periods of time. I've seen a few times where the added dps would help in kara alone. Maybe it's just me and seeing a few cp's going to waste when they could be useful.
Yes? No?
Also, noting something that might stick yet again in the craw of the max DPE being sustained here. In order to accomplish this, you MAY have to powershift a rake in order to get an extra bleed(all be it inefficient DPE, and not a lot of dps, but still more DPS and at a lower energy cost of 35 so you can shred again earlier since it's 42 energy rather than 40, in order to aquire cp's quicker.) in order to make it to 2 talents before the end of your rip, and 3 shortly after with a powershift/mangle to get the extra CP if you don't crit both(and SOL if you don't crit any and get 3 cp's for your troubles.)
I think this is actually possible if you hit your energy gains at each talent used, and can quickly run cp's if you crit 2 in a row after rip. However, I think it would be tough and possibly impossible to pull off consistantly, and tough to even pull off in itself.
I guess the question would be, is it more dps to crit mangle, crit shred, powershift, FB, powershift, crit rake, crit shred(and if one doesn't crit, powershift, mangle) and renew rip. And if you can chain crit all of this, you would probably lose 1 tick of rip if done accurately. If you don't crit 1 of the rake or shred, 2 ticks of rip.
OR
Is it more dps to continue your rotation of mangle/shred/rip at appropriate times? (all crits on those)
Again, not saying this is consistant, but a good theory craft question that I'm very curious about. Maybe someone with the time to do the math can answer this? I'm very intrigued. How much the difference in dps would be? Total damage? Don't worry about the DPE. And just the damage before the rip renew.
This would probably also consume about 1k-1.5k mana per, so you would only be able to do it 3-4 times(maybe more, and potions for more mana of course). This would reduce the utility of being a druid as well. Less mana or no mana for tranquility and/or BR.
The more I look at it, the less appealing, but I'm still curious. =D
Post by
144872
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Post by
Lightrain
Did I say that? I don't think I did... Let me look. Nope.
In order to accomplish this, you MAY have to powershift a rake in order to get an extra bleed(all be it inefficient DPE, and not a lot of dps, but still more DPS and at a lower energy cost of 35 so you can shred again earlier since it's 42 energy rather than 40, in order to aquire cp's quicker.) in order to make it to 2 talents before the end of your rip, and 3 shortly after with a powershift/mangle to get the extra CP if you don't crit both(and SOL if you don't crit any and get 3 cp's for your troubles.)
I'm also not saying to neglect your shred in the least other than to include a possible FB/rake in the same time frame for the ENERGY issue for extra CP's ONLY.
I'm just curious on the numbers behind it and the actual benefit to DPS only that this may or MAY NOT come of it. This is about speed and abusing powershifting to MAKE UP FOR THE DPE and see if it's POSSIBLE to do more dps with some added skill.
(CAPS=bold, I'm too lazy for the script)
I conceeded to your DPE and rotation. I just want to find out if this MIGHT benefit a top end raid DPS or not. Even a T4 level dps. It's curiosity on theory craft. Nothing more at this point.
It is probably way too costly to do this vs the amount of extra dps(if at all) at this point.
Post by
144872
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144872
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144872
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Post by
Lightrain
Thanks for the chart! I like it. I see how everything fits into your rotation. I wanted to do this just because it's possible.
Again
, this is not mana efficient by any means. But
possible
, so I just want to show this. I'm not saying you are wrong. And not critting misplaces stuff. This is the ideal. Out of ideal, you end up missing ticks as well. This is like tanking with a pally, SoV 5 stack, SoR, swing 2-3 times, SoV, hope it procs before the end. It's a gamble for a benefit.
Not always possible!
But it is possible, and may also displace some ticks of rip if you
don't
crit 2 in a row after the FB.
Ok... I made this little chart.
Cat GCD is 1 second.
We gain 20 energy every 2 seconds.
Assuming every attack is a crit.
This is what your dps cycle will look like......
100e +
Mangle
= 2cp ~ 60e
+20e = 80e +
Shred
= 4cp ~ 38e
Rip
= 8e
+20e = 28e
+20e = 48e +
Shred
= 2cp ~ 6e
+20e = 26e
+20e = 46e +
Shred
= 4cp ~ 4e
Powershift+20e
+20e = 40e +FB
~end of mangle~
Powershift+20e
+20e = 40e +
Mangle
= 2cp ~ 0e
~end of rip~
Powershift+20e
+20e = 40e +
rake
=4cp ~ 5e
Powershift=20e
+20e = 40e +
Rip
= 10e
+20e = 30e
+20e = 50e +
Shred
= 2cp ~ 8e
powershift =20e
+20e = 40e +
Mangle
= 4cp ~ 0e
powershift=20e
+20e=40e
previous
~end of mangle~
+20e = 60e +
Shred
= 5cp ~ 18e
+20e =38e
~end of rip~
Rip
~ 8e
+20e = 28e
+20e= 48e
Shred
= 6e
Nor is it realistic becuase we dont crit every attack, Mobsdodge,
and we are not always johnny on the spot with every single attack.
But sometimes it happens. This is also burning, what, 2k mana in 34 seconds. So with a potion, you can maybe pull this off for 2 minutes. Innervate, maybe 3 max. Shadow priest or mana tide totem, 4 minutes. I'm not saying you will get all of these crits, but it is
possible
and with more talents used in the time span, more chances of
talent
crits for more combo points in the same amount of time. Effectively adding
dps
at the cost of mana to acquire more
combo points
, and possible a few bleed ticks(made up for by the low energy, low dpe rake thrown in for
combo points
and possibly more).
Also, as you can see. Doing this would mean the span of a gcd to decide the next attack, and hit it on the second, or you lose energy. You can probably allow yourself maybe half a second flexibility for error over the
whole
8 seconds. That is HARD! but it is possible. I'm sure, at lower levels this would be
way
too little added damage, but at higher levels, how much does a FB hit for? Crit for? This would be adding a burst every once in a while when circumstances allow it. How much damage does that Rake actually do?
Adding to it raid buffs and damage enhancers to increase the output of your crits. I honestly don't have a clue how much a feral druid would crit a FB in a 25 man raid, or even normal damage. Nor do I know how much it would buff that rake. In order to leave the mangle to bleed, you have to use something else tho. I guess you could use claw instead?(not prefered over mangle even for single action damage) But rake leaves room for a shred 2 seconds sooner.
Melee haste? Does that reduce the length of the gcd? Or just make you hit faster? Does it make your bleeds faster? If that was the case, Melee haste would be a feral druid's worst enemy. Can you say "energy starved"? Maybe it reduces the energy timer as well? I'm working off of guesses here, so I could be completely off my rocker. I don't know anything about melee haste.
Lets just say you hit 4cp FB for 3000 damage. 25 man raid debuffed boss, I would think this to be very low, but w/e. You add 100 dps, to that 30 second span. Now, you may not be able to do this again for 2-3 minutes. Reducing the dps buff even more. But, by that time, you have probably regen'd a lot of that mana you used, maybe only half. 10 minute fight, doing this every minute or so, you add a bit of dps to your max. Maybe it screws you and doesn't give you any crits after the FB and you have quite a few procs of Rip or Mangle pulled off for each. Maybe FB misses twice in a row and dumps a bunch of energy. It's a risk. But it would make raid dps(IMO) more exciting than watching timers and waiting for your next shred/mangle/rip.
I'm not trying to make anyone mad. Just some theory craft at work here. Maybe try it out and see if it works. Maybe tell me to go play in the freeway. IDC. This is just interesting to me. =) Let me know if you try it. Maybe add up the damage gains of the FB and rake. Maybe see how long you can abuse powershifting for. Try it on some mobs. Maybe just a straight up spam-mangle, rake, mangle, mangle, FB, claw, mangle to 5cp FB, see how much dps you do?
This could possibly be a cool trick for doing max dps in arena, if you aren't being targeted, to try to output a burst like a war or ret pally? Play like a random dps, then at 30 % at 3 cp with a rip bleeding, rake, shred, PS-FB, PS-mangle, PS-mangle.
Post by
Celdhyrean
The link between dps and dpe is quite clear, since your white damage is constant and your yellow damage is limited by energy. Best dpe is equal to best dps.
Powershifting is an additionnal source of energy, but it's not infinite, ie you are still looking at a finite energy ressource that you have to spend as efficiently as possible. And since it's still finite, the best dpe will still ALWAYS result in the best dps.
Trying to find a cycle that looks promising is not necessary, it might look good but damage calculations would show you that it isn't as good.
You can't compare it to mana usage since there are ways to not be limited by mana for casters, where they can start to add more mana consuming abilities in their rotation. For rage, the way you spend it impacts how much you'll gain, so there again analogies won't work. As a cat, you have a finite amount of energy and you'll always be waiting on it, powershifting or not. Therefore DPE rules.
Post by
109094
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144872
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109094
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