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Powershifting- huh?
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Post by
Celdhyrean
A side note on dpe vs dps. They are indeed closely related, but increasing dps does not always mean increasing dpe. Powershifting can give a decent boost to your dps but it can play havoc with your dpe. using no powershifts you can dps at a constant, sustainable rate indefinatly. With powershifts it will increase dps and lower dpe, but due to the mana costs its not sustainable over a great enough period of time. But then depending on your own mana pool, you might have enough powershiftability (its a word) to last the duration of the fight.While i completely agree with your conclusions and reasonning, i'm a bit perplexed by this section. Namely, i don't see how powershifts could diminish your DPE. DPE is a constant for each skill (given a certain gear, ie with fixed stats). We are using it to discuss "best DPS practices" because energy is the limiting factor for kitty DPS.
When i said "more DPE = more DPS", i meant : to maximize dps, you should always use the abilities with the best dpe (not that other ways of increasing dps will have any effect on dpe).
Powershifting means more energy/s means more special attacks/s means more dps. But they are the same attacks with the same dpe. (you're not changing your cycle because of powershifting, just using the "waiting-on-energy-ticks" moments to make an energy gain combo)
PS : more detailed explanation on the "energy is the limiting factor" stuff, i prefer to separate it from my main point because it's probably already understood by most people.
Considering a boss fight, your energy is limited by the time spent fighting :
energy pool = 100+duration*20+various procs that you'r rotation/gear don't have enough impact over to matter
Having that energy pool right from the start or having the energy ticks doesn't change the fact that you have a limited amount available over the course of the fight, and because of this the best dpe skills will always be the best dps skills. There's no need to compute rotations or whatever, it's logical.
The only time this isn't true are fights where you aren't waiting on energy ticks (ie Vaelastrasz)
Debuffs like mangle for shred do complicate things a bit since they introduce a timing a factor. I guess there is a required number of shreds/rips to hit for 1 mangle to make the mangle worthwhile, but that this condition is realistically always met. (which would allow me to conveniently ignore this :p)
This energy limitation (and dpe being a constant) implies that the only thing that can be done to increase dps is to increase your energy, which is what powershifting does. It "magically" replenishes that pool somewhat faster (or increases your total energy pool for the fight), but you're still using the same attacks with the same dpe.
Post by
109094
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Post by
Celdhyrean
Hmmm no. I know that the powershifting energy gain is not the full 40, but DPE is still the same. (maybe we aren't thinking about the same thing when talking about dpe, i don't know).
A skill causes a certain damage (with fixed gear) for a certain energy cost, DPE simply represents that value.
What changes between "good" and "bad" powershifting (or none) is the amount of energy gained (or lost). It increases or decreases your total energy pool available for that fight. But the criterias to use when choosing how to spend all that energy (ie dpe) are unchanged.
A good powershifter will have more energy to spend during the same fight duration and thus will do more dps. A bad one will waste energy and thus decrease his dps.
(ie i'm okay with considering an "energy per powershift" parameter, but that's not dpe)
What I'm saying is that changing the size of your resource pool doesn't have any impact on the efficiency of your skills (dpe), it just lets you use them more often (ie dps).
Or : to choose what skills to use, look at dpe. Once you have chosen your rotation, dpe is irrelevant as the only way to increase dps is to increase the size of your energy pool (powershifting).
Post by
109094
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Post by
Celdhyrean
I understand why our conceptions of dpe differ, but it still seems fishy to me. It seems to me you're integrating the energy lost but not the energy gained ?
I look at it this way :
Let's say i have a fight that lasts me 4000 energy (ie ~200 seconds), I'll be doing 100 mangles during it.
Now I'm powershifting for a gain of 20 energy each time. Let's suppose my mana allows me to shift 20 times during the fight (exagerated but makes numbers nice). This adds 400 energy to my energy pool for that fight, ie i'll be able to use 10 additional mangles.
I've gained 10% energy (4000+400), i've done 10% more mangles (100+10). Let's call D the mangle damage,
D*110/4400 = D*100/4000 = D/40 => same dpe over the fight and same dpe than a signle mangle
dps obviously goes up by 10%
Post by
144872
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Post by
Celdhyrean
Well I'm balance actually (sometimes resto), i don't mangle/shred/rip at all :)
I like all sorts of theorycrafting though.
Post by
Lightrain
Hehe, I agree with you. All of you. I underlined your statement because it is true, and I didn't want any confusion.
THE problem with powershifting is quite simple.
OK?
Ready?
Shred=42e
That is it. That stupid 2e makes ALL the difference in the world. You CAN'T powershift a Shred. This is THE problem, and the reason it doesn't benefit the way it could. If you could powershift Shred, EVERYONE would do it. That would be a tremendous buff to the feral dps. You could probably burst an extra 1k dps for a short time if you could do that.
But you can't. The only REAL benefit to powershifting in overall dps, is if you manage to get down to 0 energy, or you are a couple energy short of a rip/mangle renew and catch it early enough to hit the next energy tick. Even a powershift/mangle isn't very good. Since mangle costs 40e, you PS and get 0 energy at the end of it. You almost want to PS twice if you PS a mangle to make up for the 0 total energy at the end of it so you can shred earlier. Rip being 30e, you can rip, wait, and shred in 2 ticks.
That 2e being THE reason I included a Rake use. 30e means a quicker shred. Granted, it does NO damage, but it DOES add a combo point, and the possibility of a crit for 2 combo points.
I was just curious behind the benefit of it. How big or small it is IF it actually happened ideally. Which would probably happen once in a blue moon.
Hehe, thanks for the input and time guys! Very fun theory crafting! =)
To parrazell- If you suck at powershifting and WASTE 20e instead of gaining 20e, you should NEVER powershift. If your comp is jumpy and your latency is irradic, you SHOULD NEVER powershift. This is ideal, advanced timing and play. If you can't consistantly time your PS right, don't do it. Just play with it, and have fun with it. =)
Oh, I forgot. You have to Mangle spam in order to get improved damage spams out of Powershifting because of that 2e as well. This being why it's not as efficient, or as effective.
Post by
121787
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Post by
Lightrain
Agreed.
Hence why I said, If you are a couple energy short of a rip or mangle renew AND catch it in time to ps and get it on the next tick instead of waiting the extra 2 seconds, it WILL benefit to do so. Otherwise, not so much. The loss of 2e is enough to make a shred take 2 seconds longer before you can use it.
I agree with you guys. You have proven that your dpe rotation is max dps that is consistant. =)
Keeping the rotation and having an odd amount of energy keeps your shred easier to acquire for longer. PS screws with that. It would be a total 'Johnny on the Spot' mentality to effectively use PS to actually be benefitial.
After this discussion, I would think the only time a PS would benefit
consistantly
is a rip renew 2 seconds earlier. This making it a mild cost "oh sh1t" button to keep your rotations ticking on the off times that it lands in a low energy spot, or you are squeezing an extra Shred in before the Rip renew on the next energy tick when you are low on energy.
Post by
Celdhyrean
Agreed.Sorry, but i still don't think you understand.
The fact that powershift consumes a little bit of energy or doesn't give you enough to shred right after is irrelevant. Putting a rake in before powershifting in order to be as close to 0 energy is still a bad use of energy.
(we're talking long fights and raid situations, ok, FB on trashes or whatever can be fine)
Energy is limited through time.
Powershifting is limited through mana, ie the extra energy gained is also limited.
NEVER will the fact change that dps'ing as a kitty is an energy limited situation. And thus, a dpe inneficient move will NEVER be better than a dpe efficient one (ie mangle for the debuff, shred for CP and Rip for finisher).
The energy you think you gain by doing a rake before a powershift is energy lost because you could have waited a bit longer on the cycle, up to a point where you'd be below 20 energy (or less if you can, i don't want to analyze cycles). During that waiting time you'd have used energy efficient moves. And after the powershift, it's the same. Not being able to do a shred immediately is of no relevance at all. What is relevant is that you are using your limited energy resource efficiently.
Because you can't powershift after every attack until the end of the fight, you won't be powershifting each time you can at the start of the fight but spacing them intelligently along the fight, at the times where your energy bar is almost empty.
And that means that powershifting is NOT situationnaly usefull depending on where you are on the cycle (ie only for rips renews or whatever). It's a net energy gain (if done well), from which you'll see the benefit wherever you are in your cycle (as long as the energy bar was low when you did it).
The benefits are for the whole fight, not just for the attack right after the powershift.
Post by
109094
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Lightrain
Agreed.Sorry, but i still don't think you understand. --Putting a rake in before powershifting in order to be as close to 0 energy is still a bad use of energy.
Um, you mis interpereted. PS-rake- leaves you with 10 energy, this makes it so you can shred in 2 ticks, 1 tick off of if you didn't rake. I did NOT say rake-PS. That's a waiste of energy. If I did say this, sorry. Also, if you shred to 0 energy, you can't shred again for 6 seconds. If you PS-rake, you add the rake, and get the shred at the same timing. Just food for thought. I wouldn't sacrafice the what, 400 mana for 700 damage IF it did NOT give me a combo point or 2. This being all it is good for in this ONE theory. Not the damage, but the extra nudge, with the desired benefit of added combo point(s) in the same time span.
Im not for one second suggestion ps at 20 energy, it was used as an easy example and for clarity only.
Yes, I'm saying if you are wasting 20e at ANY point in time when powershifting, don't do it. If I wasted 40e on 2 powershift attempts, failing to gain the EXTRA energy from it, I would stick to the standard rotation for the remainder of the fight. Attempting extra energy and succeeding is good. Failing is a waste. Sucking at it=bad dpe and dps all around.
"If you time it right you can ps, gain the energy tick netting you 60 energy within 1 second."
Explain this please? You can fully use your previous energy and gain 20 energy from 1 powershift, totalling 40e on the next tick. In no consistant situation can you gain an extra 20 energy from this that I know of. I don't even know how you can end up with 60e after a powershift ever unless you wait for a second energy tick 2 seconds later.
Post by
109094
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Post by
121787
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Post by
Lightrain
OH WOW! I was off by 20e the whole time! OMG! I thought furor was 20e gained!(/slap me)
Thank you parrazell!
THAT changes EVERYTHING! No one caught that in the table example.
Ok... I made this little chart.
Cat GCD is 1 second.
We gain 20 energy every 2 seconds.
Assuming every attack is a crit.
This is what your dps cycle will look like......
100e +
Mangle
= 2cp ~ 60e
+20e = 80e +
Shred
= 4cp ~ 38e
Rip
= 8e
+20e = 28e
+20e = 48e +
Shred
= 2cp ~ 6e
(loss=6e)PS=40e
+20e = 60e+
Shred
=4cp ~ 18e
+20e = 38e +
FB
Powershift+40e(edit)
+20e = 60e +
Shred
=2cp ~ 18e
~end of mangle~
(loss 18e)Powershift+40e(edit)
+20e = 60e +
Mangle
= 4cp ~ 20e
~end of rip~
+20e = 40e +
Rip
=4cp ~ 10e
powershift=40e
+20e = 60e +
Shred
= 18e
+20e = 38e
20 sec normal energy gain=200
This shows 9 energy using talents in this span.
Total energy used=343 (if I'm correct)
You keep your bleed stacks, and don't use Rake. Does this work for you guys?
I'm a dumb@ss. But this is good. PS Shred'ing every 2 seconds DOES improve your dps. You do waste energy, but gain a LOT of dps, and the waisted energy is excess. The gained energy from one PS is worth 4 seconds! Timed right, as parrazell corrected me on, is 60 energy per PS. You could PS-Shred spam to 4 or 5 cp's and FB or Rip to your heart's content(Limit being your mana pool), throwing in mangle between for the debuff when needed. Use a PS to potion for mana if you want a few more shifts. Take a break while the shadow priest does his VT work and you regen your mana(if applicable). (Now if you had a UI with a 3rd bar to show your mana in the background.... (= )
Think of it this way. 50% crit- very possible in 25 man raid as a druid. 10 second Rip timer- PS/Shred or mangle every 2 seconds, you get 3 out of 5 crits, that's 8 CP's. This is highly possible. Way better chance than the previous model. If you PS/shred(crit), PS/shred(crit), wait for tick, FB, PS/shred, and so on.
You could Rip, PS/Shred, if it crits, try for the FB combo using PS/Shred or Mangle spam, If it doesn't, stop. This would be great for Max dps areas. Incorporating shreds EVERY energy tick, rather than every other, and some times adding 2 sec to that.
Post by
109094
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Post by
121787
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
109094
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Lightrain
Hehe, yes, but for some short burst sections of dps, throwing in 3 or 4 PS to add 8-10k normal dmg or more is a bonus that won't make you oom if you pot on one of em, You could possibly do this a few times on an evocation or such like that.
That makes me wonder too. I'm pretty sure. JoW effects work on druids and pets while beast with no mana, I would think you would still gain from a Spriest or Sham while in beast form.
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