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Why do people expect to roll for shards?
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Post by
177566
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Post by
194373
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Post by
Random0098
I didn't read all 16 pages, but the way I see it, the arguments are:
1. Enchanter should be able to take the blue drops that nobody else needs because it's like a node, and they need it for leveling. When they're 450, they should just roll greed with everyone.
2. Roll greed with everyone, because no one should expect the Enchanter to DE something that isn't his. Let them be an enchanter themselves.
3. Everyone pass, then roll on the DE'd shard because why not let everyone have the chance to make some good money.
My answers to these arguments are as follows:
1. This argument has its merits, but in reality it would never work in a PuG and would only rarely work in a guild instance. It is very idealistic, but everyone wants gold and the blue drops in instances are a good portion of the wealth.
2. Not a bad idea, a little rude on the part of the Enchanter, but at its core it has serious limitations. These limitations are described in the answer to the next argument.
3. This is the way it has to be, and this is why: Not only will it make the Enchanter slightly more popular than with the other two arguments, but it is a way better option than argument (2). With this option, you will be getting the same amount of shards as (2), but with one distinct difference: In (2) there will be no other shards being produced, while in (3) there are. Yes, the others will be making nice money - more than you would have liked, but whatever - but where will those shards be going? The AH! If we go with option (2) there will be a severe decrease in the number of shards in the AH, driving the price up. But if we let everyone get their shards, and they are sold at the AH, the price will go down and Enchanters can still get their shards at a more modest fee.
Ok, that was my two cents.
Post by
KittyKat77
If someone wants to get their drop DEed for free, make an alt and/or take up enchanting.
Have they changed it so BOP items can be DE'd by someone who didn't pick it up now?
No?
Then groups will still be expecting someone in the group or guild who DEs to DE bind-on-pickup items and /roll for shards if they are in the group.
I agree, if an enchanter isn't happy with DEing items and rolling for shards (I.E. having the same chance as everyone else at getting the shard) they shouldn't say they can DE.
If an enchanter in group with me IS willing to DE and roll for shards, I am 99.9% more likely to add them to my friends list (providing they didn't suck and cause us to wipe fifty times), and ask them when I need an enchant on my gear. Most likely with the shards or other materials from dungeon runs, and also with a tip or payment for the service. It is in an enchanter's best financial interest to gain happy loyal customers, because if they won't provide a service (such as DEing for dungeon runs) there are a dozen other enchanters with the same enchantments who WILL do it.
Post by
sutasafaia
No, I did not read 16 pages, but I can tell you why I certainly expect to be rolling on shards. It's simple really, your normally given the item you disenchant. If nobody wants the item and it becomes a group greed-roll, then no, you get to keep and do whatever you want with it. If, however, everybody in the group passes on the item just so you can disenchant it, then yes we roll on the shard. Nobody is entitled to gear just because of their profession.
It's the same for other professions also, at least in groups I run. If mobs drop ore, the persons whose turn it is to loot gets to keep the ore, it doesn't just go to the smith. On the other hand, if there's a node, the smith gets to keep their ore. The main difference being, nobody in the party had to give up anything to let the smith (the only person who can get the node) get said node. On the other hand, in order for an enchanter to get the shard, they either have to win the greed roll for the gear (in which case it is theirs free and clear) or they have to be given the item, which does mean the rest of the party gave up money they could have gotten from the item, even just a few gold from the vendor if it was BoP.
It all comes down to one thing really, enchanters do not get to ask other players to give up their money so that only the enchanter gets something out of it.
Post by
dslyecix
The only reason enchanters have to put up with this bull^&@! is because other people have the POWER to take our shards away from us.
If the group complains because they want to roll on a mine, or on a piece of leather, there's NOTHING they can do to stop that skinner/miner from keeping it themselves (and most people wouldn't even want to, as this is the accepted norm).
An enchanter, however, has to rely on everyone in the group PASSING on the item in question in order to be able to win it and then DE. Miners dont need the groups permission to get the ore, enchanters DO.
It's an unfair system but unfortunately what we have to deal with.
Post by
Random0098
You guys should totally read my post just a bit up there, It's great.
Post by
104412
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Post by
dslyecix
Because generally Shards are more useful and valuable to a player than a BoP item that will only get vendored.
If you don't like doing it, don't do it. Just don't tell anybody you're an enchanter, and roll Greed just like everybody else.
Hehe, my way of picking out ninja enchanters is to look at rings for enchants ; )
TBH if you're that selfish with shards I would never group with you again. As a miner, when I run UK, I always ask if there is another miner and we share the ore; as an enchanter you should greed all blues and roll on shards at the end. Everyone needs frozen orbs, for example, but it is a greeded item because, at the end of the day, it is a currency just like shards.
It's akin to a jewelcrafter or blacksmith needing the mines over a miner who would just sell the ore because they can "use" the ore to prospect or craft.Unless I'm reading this wrong, you contradict yourself here. An enchanter is selfish for wanting the shards he gets from HIS OWN PROFESSION... but you then say a jewelcrafter and blacksmith should not roll on some ore.
Post by
146249
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Post by
MrFredII
First I am amazed at the legs of this thread.
I've commented earlier, but to reiterate. When I pug, I wowarmory all strangers. Before we enter the instance, I ask if anyone is an enchanter and willing to DE BOP drops. Yes this is a trick question. If there is an enchanter and they are unwilling to DE I generally do not pug with them. If an enchanter lies about their profession they get kicked. If they are not someone I know we DE and roll on BOP drops as we go. If the enchanter ninja's they get kicked and I inform their guild. You be amazed how little tolerance good guilds have for bad behavior.
They are called pick up
groups
for a reason. Its a group effort. Why include uncooperative people?
Post by
dslyecix
First I am amazed at the legs of this thread.
I've commented earlier, but to reiterate. When I pug, I wowarmory all strangers. Before we enter the instance, I ask if anyone is an enchanter and willing to DE BOP drops. Yes this is a trick question. If there is an enchanter and they are unwilling to DE I generally do not pug with them. If an enchanter lies about their profession they get kicked. If they are not someone I know we DE and roll on BOP drops as we go. If the enchanter ninja's they get kicked and I inform their guild. You be amazed how little tolerance good guilds have for bad behavior.
They are called pick up
groups
for a reason. Its a group effort. Why include uncooperative people?
So you decide the enchanter should have to give up materials they NEED, because it's uncooperative to do otherwise? Why dont' the miners and skinners have to "cooperate" and put up their ore or leather for roll as well?
You're ignoring the whole reason these enchanters would be "greedy".
Post by
MrFredII
First I am amazed at the legs of this thread.
I've commented earlier, but to reiterate. When I pug, I wowarmory all strangers. Before we enter the instance, I ask if anyone is an enchanter and willing to DE BOP drops. Yes this is a trick question. If there is an enchanter and they are unwilling to DE I generally do not pug with them. If an enchanter lies about their profession they get kicked. If they are not someone I know we DE and roll on BOP drops as we go. If the enchanter ninja's they get kicked and I inform their guild. You be amazed how little tolerance good guilds have for bad behavior.
They are called pick up
groups
for a reason. Its a group effort. Why include uncooperative people?
So you decide the enchanter should have to give up materials they NEED, because it's uncooperative to do otherwise? Why dont' the miners and skinners have to "cooperate" and put up their ore or leather for roll as well?
You're ignoring the whole reason these enchanters would be "greedy".
As I said in a previous post in this thread I have no problem with players rolling on herbs or ore, and always offer herbs for roll. Rolling need, as applied to a piece of BOP gear, means you can equip it, its appropriate to your class and spec, and its an upgrade compared to what you already have. By your definition we all "need" those materials not just enchanters. Given the choice I won't group with someone who won't cooperate to make them available.
Post by
311880
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Post by
302085
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Post by
136555
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
dslyecix
First I am amazed at the legs of this thread.
I've commented earlier, but to reiterate. When I pug, I wowarmory all strangers. Before we enter the instance, I ask if anyone is an enchanter and willing to DE BOP drops. Yes this is a trick question. If there is an enchanter and they are unwilling to DE I generally do not pug with them. If an enchanter lies about their profession they get kicked. If they are not someone I know we DE and roll on BOP drops as we go. If the enchanter ninja's they get kicked and I inform their guild. You be amazed how little tolerance good guilds have for bad behavior.
They are called pick up
groups
for a reason. Its a group effort. Why include uncooperative people?
So you decide the enchanter should have to give up materials they NEED, because it's uncooperative to do otherwise? Why dont' the miners and skinners have to "cooperate" and put up their ore or leather for roll as well?
You're ignoring the whole reason these enchanters would be "greedy".
As I said in a previous post in this thread I have no problem with players rolling on herbs or ore, and always offer herbs for roll. Rolling need, as applied to a piece of BOP gear, means you can equip it, its appropriate to your class and spec, and its an upgrade compared to what you already have. By your definition we all "need" those materials not just enchanters. Given the choice I won't group with someone who won't cooperate to make them available.
You have no problem doing it, but it's not the norm. People dont
expect
to roll on those things, and as such you could simply skin/mine/herb and not say a thing. Enchanters don't even have this luxury, and it's a luxury that 99.9% of players take for granted.
You may offer things up for roll, but chances are that your offer is hardly ever even accepted. After all, why would other people roll on the leather you NEED, when they would simply be selling it?
I hope you see the irony in this mentality.
Post by
sutasafaia
The problem is that none of the other professions have to ask other players to give something up. If you walk by a mining node, and the group has a miner, nobody loses anything by letting the miner pick up the node that they would not have gotten if the miner had not been there. Same for herbs and skins. If there is no miner, no ore happens, nobody loses anything since it wouldn't have been picked up anyway. Same for herbs, or skins.
However, an enchanter who wants to simply be given the extra gear for shards IS asking the group to give something up that they would have gotten had the enchanter not been there, and that is the value of the item they want to shard. Enchanting is the only profession that has to take away value from others in order to make value, so no, you do not get to simply say "I'm the enchanter so all extra gear is mine." Nobody gets to join your group and tell you you no longer have access to the money you could have had if the enchanter didn't get all the extra loot, even if it's just the BoP gear nobody wants. Some of that stuff can be tossed to a vendor for 20+g if it's a high end item.
On the other hand, if everybody just does a /roll and passes for the BoP item and the enchanter pays the vendor price for it, great. Unfortunately, most of the time the enchanters I group with tend to be "I'm the enchanter, I deserve any and all loot the party doesn't want. Period." Normally that's when I have to start looking for a new party member.
Yea, sometimes players can take it to far and the enchanter gets a bit knocked around. On the other hand, at least from personal experience, it's normally the enchanter who gets &*!@y first and causes the problems in the groups.
Post by
Jay20016
It has probably been said before, but to get to the point of Need/Greed on the item, and whether or not it will be disenchanted or used by someone, means that the
group
had to work together to kill something. Out of that collective effort, the
group
is rewarded with loot drops. If someone doesn't need the item(s) and there is an enchanter, I feel it is their job to DE them for the
groups
benefit.
Had the Enchanter rolled into the instance solo and gotten the loot to drop, it is all theirs. That it requires more than just them means that everyone has a stake in what comes from the boss.
My only 80 is currently my DK who is a Blacksmith/Miner. I do however have many alts (71 mage and druid) The mage I rarely play and is Enchanting/JC... they're both at skill lvl 450 because it is pretty easy to find materials. As an enchanter, I don't expect to get shards based on my profession. I have to farm materials just the same as a miner, a skinner, etc. only those materials come from useless gear. Either things that I earn questing, crafting, or find cheap on the AH. That is how you farm your mast for enchanting...
As a miner, if I find a vein of some sort in an instance, it is between the miners. They exist out of the instance, the group is not the only way to get there... The miner can solo-farm the same material that just happens to be in the instance. If we were to roll on the 3 ore that may or may not drop from it, what use does the group have for it? Maybe a JCer, but it isn't the responsibility of another to farm your mats... if he is JCer he should have a way to get those materials... For everyone else the simple ore is a useless commodity that they can put on the AH. Contrast that with the Enchanter... the shard is something everyone can use. Regardless of profession, regardless of class, we all need enchants to min/max ourselves. If the group gets the kill, the group doesn't need the item(s), the group should be rewarded with the shard...
Furthermore, a lot of instances
don't
offer much in terms of mining/skinning/herbin... so a lot of the 'well other gatherers need to offer their respective wares up to' is a bit dubious, since there might not have been something else farmed...
Post by
Ayline
Another simple fix to this problem is don't pug. In my guild we have a system that works like so: If you're enchanter you greed on BoP, if you need it need, neither means you pass. When the enchanter goes to DE it, they keep the shard and next time a guildy comes around needing an enchant that shard will go towards the enchant whether or not they were in the run it came from, it's sort of general guild property for when someone needs an enchant.
I was once in a pug, however, H VH, there was an enchanter who greeded everything; as I am used to my guild's system and other people felt the same way, everyone else passed on BoPs. At the end the enchanter DEed everything and gave 1 shard to each person, and kept the rest of the dream shards, he had us roll for the nexus crystal(shard, w/e). He did it completely of his own accord, no one asked him to do it he just said roll for the nexus.
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