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Impale for protection
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Post by
264258
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205382
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41852
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Post by
Sakkura
Lawls, 3 pages of epic failure. If you take impale with prot you loos way to many good talent points that either add to your mitigation, mobility, or multi-target threat generation, all three of which are vastly more important than your dps or slight increase in single target threat. If you cant generate 2500 tps against a single target, with spikes up to 3k, in blues/crafted gear, then you shouldn't be tanking. At that level most classes wont touch you on threat, unless they are played by good players.
I don't think you lose
that
many great talents. Most of the loss will be in cruelty, where impale is simply more bang for your buck. You will lose a few prot points too though, most likely puncture and perhaps imp. spell reflect (if you're into that). Given that the value of puncture has decreased quite a bit and imp. spell reflect is a quite meh talent for raiding, it certainly isn't pure fail to go for impale. It's just debatable.
None of what you will usually give up for impale will significantly affect your survivability. It's a swap between various threat and DPS buffs primarily. I do agree that threat is in most cases a non-issue, but DPS never is. Tanks do more DPS while tanking than they did in TBC or pre-TBC, relative to DPSers. So buffing our raw DPS is not totally negligible.
Post by
205382
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41852
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Post by
Jaysap
Lawls, 3 pages of epic failure. If you take impale with prot you loos way to many good talent points that either add to your mitigation, mobility, or multi-target threat generation, all three of which are vastly more important than your dps or slight increase in single target threat. If you cant generate 2500 tps against a single target, with spikes up to 3k, in blues/crafted gear, then you shouldn't be tanking. At that level most classes wont touch you on threat, unless they are played by good players.
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=Li0h0bZhxZVztrg0zidIzsGo
Feel free to point out what I'm losing in terms of avoidance, mitigation, or threat generation.
Improved Thunder Clap.
You lose 30% damage towards threat and 10% slower attack speed on the mobs - threat and mitigation there.
I have to say though, I like that there are several builds and everybody has their own priority for talents depending on personal preferences as well as role, and as such the builds are nice and varied.
I'm testing
this
out right now. I could remove vigilance or two points in Improved Shield Block and put them elsewhere, such as cruelty.
Lottsa options 'ere!
Post by
Sakkura
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LVMhzbZhhZVIurx0zidIzsGo
Just gonna use your build as an example.
With Imp TC, and Incite, obviously you're more aligned with tanking multiple mobs, as it's easier for a warrior now, and in most instances it's required to tank multiple. I use the hell out of Imp Spell Reflect, not only is spell damage a big bane of warriors, it's also a useful talent to reduce damage your group is taking, while gettin aggro on pesky casters while you deal with melee mobs. And sacrificing 2 points of Anticipation is ludicrious. Avoidance for a warrior is second only to defense cap, and since most people are just hitting that 540, avoidance stats are looking quite pathetic.
On top of that, Unless you're Def capped, and stacking agility for dodge and crit, you're crit chance is so low, that an extra 20% to your crits really isn't adding enough to justify the talent allocation for it. Prot warriros w/o impale should eaisly be able to put out close to 1k dps, in blues/crafted epics, which is a pretty solid chunk, an impale build might be viable for an OT or leveling/solo build, but until youre avoidance and HP are high enough to have 10 mobs beating on you in heroics, w/o taxing your healer, you're not doing your job. Dps is important, but is second to tanking if you're supposed to be tanking.
Taking any points out of anticipation is indeed a very bad idea for serious tanking, but you don't have to do that in order to get impale.
However, your point about crit chance is incorrect, because of the many prot talents that increase crit chance on your abilities. A typical build will see a 15% increase to the crit chance on devastate, shield slam, heroic strike, thunder clap and cleave. On top of a typical base crit chance around 10%, as well as at least 6-7% from raid buffs, your crit chance on the standard tanking abilities (except revenge mind you) will easily be around 32-33%, without any points in cruelty. Even with revenge stuck at about 15-20% crit, impale will do quite a bit for your threat and DPS.
And as I said before, you do not have to give up survivability to get impale. Check out
this build
for an example; the two points in cruelty could be swapped to imp. spell reflect if you like, or you could pick up anger management if you lack rage a lot (offtanking eg.). You lose no survivability talents this way.
As for imp. spell reflect, i don't think it is that great of a talent. When raiding, spell damage usually makes up a very small percentage of the damage a tank takes. The group protection is quite useless for raids, although you could go for it for heroics. Of course, for PvP it could have some very interesting applications, but that is outside the realm of tanking.
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205382
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41852
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33153
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Post by
Sakkura
Lack of improved TC is an instant fail for me. Increased damage, decreased cost, increased mitigation
That is a 100% must have skill.
So far nobody has convinced me that impale is worth taking. I'm having zero trouble with aggro, but right now as i'm just starting to gear up im having a bit of trouble with survivability.
Again, you lose no survivability talents by picking up impale. You don't need it for threat either, since that is in most cases a non-issue. So it all comes down to DPS - which setup gives you the most DPS. Impale looks like a good option, but so does 5/8/58.
Post by
138583
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Post by
Porcell
You take imp spell reflect for the 4% chance for spells to miss, not for the group reflect aspect.
IMHO, the tank's job isn't DPS, it's taking as little damage as possible. If impale increases my DPS from 1250 up to 1300, that's just not worth it. From everything I've seen, the DPS increase from impale just is not that great, especially if you have to give up DPS talents (cruelty, AttT, or incite). It's even less worth it if you have to give up mitigation talents (imp TC, imp Spell Reflect).
Post by
Sakkura
You take imp spell reflect for the 4% chance for spells to miss, not for the group reflect aspect.
4% of probably less than 10% of overall damage taken is a tiny amount. And it's random, not even a guaranteed few percent off the top of each spell. IMO a waste of talent points for tanking if you only get it for the 4% miss. Heck, even when you tank the lord of magic himself the talent won't do much... That says a lot.
Post by
264258
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138583
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Post by
Sakkura
As for the matter of giving up
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=55133
, you gotta remember that due to diminishing returns, getting one of the defence stats too high over the others wont make you any good - they need to be balanced to work properly. So if you have like 30 dodge, 20 parry and 20 block adding another 5 dodge may be not effective in the long run and you probably have better place to spend those talents points.
Talents are not affected by diminishing returns, only gear. So having 5/5 anticipation raises the point where you get diminishing returns on dodge by 5%.
Post by
Flaks
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LAM00bZhxZVhtMg0zidIzsGo
Impale based build; I really don't know if it's worth sacrificing 5 points better spent in the protection tree just to get impale so here's my go to build for heroics.
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LVZhxZVItrgMzidIzsGo
On second thought, those 7 points I put into protection really don't seem all that important. The only actual important thing I'm missing in the impale build is incite which we can all probably live without since thunder clap is the only truly important thing in that talent.
Post by
Sakkura
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LAM00bZhxZVhtMg0zidIzsGo
Impale based build; I really don't know if it's worth sacrificing 5 points better spent in the protection tree just to get impale so here's my go to build for heroics.
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LVZhxZVItrgMzidIzsGo
On second thought, those 7 points I put into protection really don't seem all that important. The only actual important thing I'm missing in the impale build is incite which we can all probably live without since thunder clap is the only truly important thing in that talent.
You are skipping key talents in improved revenge and incite. Boosting revenge damage by 20% is a big deal, and increasing the crit chance of heroic strike (as well as thunder clap and cleave) is also a very big deal, especially with impale and the heroic strike glyph.
As discussed above, improved spell reflection is a debatable talent, but definitely should be a much lower priority than improved revenge and incite.
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