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WTB - A challenging Heroic 5-man.

Post by Poglia

For me, TBC heroics were easier than WotLK ones. Never had a problem in TBC, and having Honored reputation wasn't a big requirement (I become Honored just by doing quests when leveling). I started TBC Heroics with my guild with green and blue gear and I can't remember any wipe.

WotLK is different... I have NEVER done an Heroic (PUG) without wiping at least 3 times. NEVER. All people are noob nowadays (maybe it's my server). Tanks don't know how to tank and they pull 2-3 groups at time. Healers are impossible to find, and if you have the luck to find them you will realize that they don't know how to heal and go OOM in a few seconds. DPS do less than 1000 DPS. DKs use always Death Grip and die. No one know tactics, and all leave group after the first wipe, without notice.

Heroics are not harder, but people are retarded and they make easy Instances become hard.

Of course not all people are bad... I remember doing Old Kingdom Heroic with a Shadow Priest healer and he was healing 10 times better than most Holy/Restoration healers around. No one realized that he was Shadow until the last boss.

DPS: "OMG U SHADOW?"
Priest: "Yup."
Me: "Don't worry, he is healing better than some Holy priests I know..."

And we didn't wiped.

Post by 120885

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Post by MrFredII

There are some difficult heroics, like AN and OK. The problem isn't in difficult heroics, the problem is there's no reason to do heroic AN/OK when you can get the same gear/emblems out of any easy heroic. The emblem out of UK is the same out of OK.

Even if they released a heroic that was the most difficult content in the game, nobody would run it. Just like nobody runs OK or Occ now

/totally agree
Was thinking of writing this while reading other posts. People keep whining about easy heroics. Why when I enter LFM and browse the heroics and ppl LFG there, the only ones I always see are Nexus, VH, UK. Heroics like Oculus, UP, OK and even DTK are usually empty. If you want a challenging heroic - go pug one of those.

But again - at the end of the day, NOONE WANTS CHALLENGE. every1 wants some fast and easy emblems. This was the problem in TBC as well - people would rather go for fast badges in SP, UB, Mech, and abandon Arca, Shadow Labs, Sethekk, Shattered Halls and Crypts

A couple of comments. First I find it interesting that there seems to a consensus that AN is hard. For whatever reason its never given the groups I've run it with much trouble. Which fight or fights do people think make this a tough heroic and why?

As for no one running the perceived "hard" heroics, generally we select instances based on drops. My guild has a bunch of folks alt DKs who recently dinged 80. We generally end up pugging in a couple of outsiders and running whatever instance drops gear they need. Often these are the instances mentioned as avoided. Equally often we go somewhere else. I'm not sure which drop they want, but all these DKs always want to go to OK. The exception is VH not because its easy (although it is), but because its so convenient. Since its right in Dalaran, getting people to fill out a 5 man for VH usually takes 2 minutes.

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Post by dhampir1989

Regarding AN heroic:

the trash on the first boss can sometimes be challenging for some groups (50% of groups that I've been with); and Anub'Arak requires the group to have some decent gear or tank won't survive Pound, if the group's dps isn't enough - you get overwhelmed with poison dealing adds and wipe.

Tried this arguement,

They arent pugged because they arent fun.

Nothing to do with them being tricky at all. Nope. Just not fun.

Does anyone find fun in UK, Nexus, VH or Gundrak (the most pugable heroics on my server)? Having basic tank'n'spank fights requiring no brain activity (except for Kelistrasza. u actually need brains to press 'jump' every couple of seconds, got proved in yesterday's run). They are so damn fun. lol.
Hence my sarcastic comment.

Post by Deficineiron

I totally agree with the OP on this issue. I've personally tanked every heroic and there's something really odd with the arguments put up here.

thanks. one thing i have wondered is how avg heroic trash mob melee damage has scaled from bc to wotlk. i know on mail/leather mix in bc heroics they did ~4k, which probably backs out to 6k unmitigated. what is avg damage (on plate, can back out if i know your mitigation) from melee trash now? My suspicion is that it has not scaled with avg. tank health, nor is proportional to avg. player dps increase, from the prior expansion.

Post by Deficineiron

There were heroics back in BC that one false move, no matter what your gear, meant a wipe. In wrath, you can have a group who's MO is exclusively screwing up and you can still clear heroics. Blizzard just hasn't catered to the hardcore players like any other good developer would.

I can only conclude that an overriding directive came from above that mandated that ALL released content had to be clearable by what was estimated as a least-common-demoninator group of players (e.g. bad players), including heroics, and with some accepted marginal difficulty increase, raids. Encounter and boss designers don't WANT to make fights facerolls right out of the box, I am sure. They simply weren't given any choice.

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Post by Deficineiron

if you have a better idea/solution for catering to casual AND hardcore players, please lets us know your thoughts.

blizz already has the system in place (heroic content) and they even expanded it to raids, the problem is they reduced heroic content to a much lower difficulty level. It was completely possible to tune heroic 25-mans to represent substantially harder content than the 10-mans, but they didn't. Heroic 5-mans are a joke.

As I said somewhere, it seems clear to me the devs in charge of difficulty were given clear instructions to make ALL content fairly easy, heroic included. There is no other way to explain the 180-degree turn from the approach to BC heroics.

Post by Deficineiron

i don't think it'd be that painful if they didn't allow players who simply suck themselves to not see certain content.

Only in retrospect will the impact of the tuning decisions in this expansion be clear, and then only if blizz breaks down sub. numbers by region, assuming continued overseas growth. I think the BC model, which saw tremendous growth in the released sub numbers, was more-or-less-ok after initial nerfing of entry-level raid (kara). It certainly was popular, and no one said it was a faceroll experience.

One can imagine two tiers of raids after that on the bc model, using the pre-and post-nerfs versions of Mag, for example (not sure how much hkm/gruul was nerfed over time, but I know mag was dramatically nerfed over a couple of patches).

I think boss encounter developers WANT to make a ball-buster fight, but aside from sarth 3d, they have not been allowed to (have to see how hard the voluntary handicapping is in ulduar). The continued use of the voluntary difficulty model with extra loot does have potential, but as far as 5-man heroics go, we are screwed.

Post by Deficineiron

I really don't know, I haven't noticed as I RARELY get a chance to not tank a heroic haha. What I do remember though is that back in BC, if trash wasn't tanked, it'd faceplant clothies immediately. Now, my mage can take on a few heroic trash mobs without dying. Hell my mage can be attacked by raid trash and still survive fairly well for a while. It's silly. I don't remember pulling ponies in Kara and living to tell about it.

I cannot corroborate this at the moment, but my suspicion is that net heroic melee trash mob dmg has barely increased, if not decreased, from bc. With ~10k health, my hunter was 2-shot by mobs in heroic bf in less than a second at 70 (4k melee hit, 6k special attack hit). dps health hasn't increased that much, unlike tanks, but dps can survive a lot better.

If anyone can check this, I would be really curious.

Post by Lightrain

As I said somewhere, it seems clear to me the devs in charge of difficulty were given clear instructions to make ALL content fairly easy, heroic included. There is no other way to explain the 180-degree turn from the approach to BC heroics.

I'm not sure exactly what your point with this thread is. Nor did I read the middle 2 pages because, oh yeah, it's a bunch of drivel.

However, I did notice Deficineiron mentioning he is a DPS shammy.

Hmmm.... Roll a druid. Go tank, heal, and do some feral dps/OT'ing.

You are complaining about being a bored dps while being the biggest face rolling dps class out there. Seriously.....

Try out some harder classes. I'm sure because you've seen all the content now, you will be pretty bored reguardless of the class you are playing, but at least you will be worried about an actual "rotation" or better "priority list" style of dps. You will also learn what tanking is about, and probably have a bunch of dps drop out of groups on you because you lack the desire to save their digital lives. I'm not even going to get into stacking HoT's on a whole group of people while keeping the tank alive(which is painfully difficult if you are undergeared).

Post by Lightrain

In the real world challenge is a relative term so I get it. But to imply that for a challenge, one must, disable some aspect of their ability to be challenged is just nonsense. The best athletes are challenged not because the bar was dropped... but because it was raised...

I'm sorry, but I had to LoL here. This is a game after all.

Difficulty in WoW is not the content, although it is hard if you are new to the game.

Arena is where the difficulty is bumped.

You can not in any way face roll in arena. It's not possible. If you get to a 1900-2200+ rating, then you have my props as being an excelent WoW player.

If you down Kel and come here to QQ about the difficulty, you have no simpathy from me about playing a faceroll class with minor duties in raid. You are being carried by skilled players that make the fight a face roll for you.

A few entertaining fights-
Tanking Heigan the Unclean is harder than it looks.
Tanking Skadi. Nuff said, unless you are a DK ofc. DnD is too easy to spam.
Healing Loken with a group that doesn't run fast enough.

I'll be honest, if you are a DPS, if you aren't a feral druid or Affl lock(hunger rogues are a bit tough too), you really should go do arena for difficulty.

Post by Deficineiron

I'm not sure exactly what your point with this thread is. Nor did I read the middle 2 pages because, oh yeah, it's a bunch of drivel.

Your failure to understand does not enter into it, given that you have not read anything. You might should not be surprised about not understanding something you have not read. I am talking about the business motivation trying to understand why blizzard did this in the part you quote. Since blizzard is a business, they do things with business motivations.

Also, I do think ench is one of the harder dps classes to play well (I suspect the dot classes are complicated as well, particularly af. lock). You have no rational rotation, just a priority system with a random popup MW ability that throws it off, totem management (often intra-pull), and the usual stuff melee has to do as well. I assure you it is more interesting than /petattack /cast volley on trash (actually this is 30% nerfed now), or other hunter spec rotations on bosses. Ret pally (which I leveled in wotlk on) is easier than enhc imho, mainly due to no totem duty and no mw random popup to watch.

in bc had 70 hunter paladin priest, 73 79 70 post-expansion...have tanked on pally, on much harder content than is around now...

If you find the game hard or challenging, then good. If you find the 5-man heroics (the topic of this thread) as hard or harder than bc heroics pre-nerfs, great. Get used to the fact that a growing minority of players disagree and are unhappy with the tuning change in this expansion compared to the prior, and it is going to be a topic of discussion.

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Post by Deficineiron

Great post. It is what it is, though I do think the raid content will have some challenges in achievement-form w/loot in the future. Hopefully such content will provide real challenges.

For the 5-man model, the mold is already cast, the 12 instances are here, and there is nothing. I guess I wait until alt-itis bites again.

WTB - A challenging Heroic 5-man.

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