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I raid frost and I'm always top 5
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Post by
150866
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Post by
onelove221
'locks got gimped in WOTLK and aren't even on my yardstick for DPS comparisons anymore.
You have bad warlocks. They outdid Mages since the beginning of LK if they knew how to play Aff and now don't even have to know it anymore.
Most of my guild's warlocks are Aff (some are still destro) and even though they aren't as geared as the mages and DKs, they aren't even close.
I'm just happy mages aren't nearly as weak in WOTLK as we were in TBC, where warlocks, shadow priests, elemental shamans, rogues and food vendors in Shattrath were out dpsing us in their sleep, no matter what our spec was.
Either way, frost raiding still isn't a very good way to help your guild clear endgame content.
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321957
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79146
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Post by
onelove221
but you aren't going to be pulling your weight on 3D Sarth.
You should probably have read my previous posts, since that was the worst possible example you could have used. You. Are. Wrong.
Sorry but you are wrong. Try to do a 3D Sarth zerg with ppl doing 4k dps. LOL. 9 times out of 10, the FAIL will be epic.
Btw, check out Tankspot's Razorscale guide. You know, the one where they get him grounded in two air phases? Oh, oh wait, is that a water elemental over there? Is, is that a frost mage? Wow, those guys must be total noobs.
(Btw, if you were curious, the frost mage
heavily
outdoes the fire mage on their recount.)
^^ I'm sorry but you aren't making any sense.
Does this scenario take into account for gear and player skill? No? Then it's kind of the point. If the frost mage is better geared or more skilled than another mage to the extent that he can outdps a fire mage as frost, then he would do EVEN MORE DPS specced fire or arcane. This is not rocket science.
Gimping your DPS, and make no mistake, by speccing frost that is exactly what you are doing, imperils the other 24 people in your raid by forcing them to have to stay alive that much longer.
So if I were in your raid, I'd be the absolute last place dps? Because if not shouldn't the lower ones be forced to change first? We come back to a point brought up earlier, by this logic the raid should be filled with 15 warlocks.
1. No you wouldn't be in last place in our raids, but you would be behind every other mage, and all the dps classes that are specced optimally for PVE. In fact the only people you would be ahead of are the undergeared people without their T7.5 and the healers/tanks. And since gear is what is holding those other toons back, not spec, they WILL eventually catch and pass a frost mage in terms of DPS. That's what you fail to realize.
2. I can think of several situations where being frost might be acceptable, but overall the spec as it is currently designed is not going to be able to put out the required dps in endgame. As others here have said, enrage timers are back. If a specific fight calls for frost - great! Otherwise you should be specced optimally for max dps and right now that means fire, ffb or arcane.
3. 15 Warlocks. Or 15 Deathnights. Or 15 Fire mages. Or 15 other
optimally specced
dps classes. That's what you are missing. Blizzard itself stated tha in WOTLK it wanted to minimize the delta in dps between equally geared
PVE specced classes
to around 5% or so. If that is indeed the case, what is the idea behind bringing non-optimal spec dps to a raid? The challenge of lengthened fights? Did Blizzard put in an an achievement we don't know about?
I played frost for 70 levels and loved the playstyle, the survivability and the flexibility. But I am not kidding myself to think I should ask other people to make up for my lower dps in 3.1 endgame content.
Post by
321957
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307911
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Post by
onelove221
Onelove, you're just making things up and ignoring previously provided information.
You made up the 4k number. I
easily
do 4.5k over that time period, and I'm several hundred spellpower short of pre-3.1 optimal. You would know this if you'd actually read the thread through. Most of the players in the video that introduced the world to Sarth3D zerg were pulling this kind of dps.
The admin for tankspot, a definitive source of strategy guides for all bosses, successfully beat razorscale (with a raid full of pre-3.1 geared raiders), doing it with only two air phases (the current gold-standard of success for that fight), and did so with a frost mage in the raid.
A frost mage who did more dps than the fire mage who was also in this extremely successful raid.
You keep talking around the crux of the matter.
Yes you can raid as frost. NO you will not be putting out optimal dps. This isn't my opinion. This is based on the hard arithmetic. Once you correct for gear, a toon with suboptimal spec is not performing to its highest potential and in fights with enrage timers and splash damage, prolonging fights = FAIL.
I'd like to see a WWS parse of a Sarth 3D Zerg where the majority of the DPS is putting out 4k-4.5k dps. Otherwise I will have to take your assertions with a grain of salt.
In light of this fact, everything else you said was "blah blah, I've lost the argument but I'm too thick to notice, blah"
So you seem to have no respect for facts and I have no desire for this to go around in circles, I will end this here.
Good luck raiding as frost.
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