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Mage PvP Guide
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Post by
LoyalWolf
Thanks for the guide, it helped alot. (im a fire mage)
Couple things though
(19/52/0)
Deep Fire + Imp. CS
you have torment of the weak in there and its a good talent and everything but its useless for fire pvp. it only increases the damage on frostbolt, fireball, frostfire bolt, arcane missiles, and arcane barrage. I wouldnt use any of these in fire as pvp :/
you also have firestarter in there too, i personaly always forget to use it becuase like you said, if you use blast wave or dragons breath its probably to save your life.
other than that its pretty good, take a look at my spec and tell me what you think =P
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#of0ifzMZfVfbRhhufkr0st:Ldmom
Post by
Achloryn
Thanks for the guide, it helped alot. (im a fire mage)
Couple things though
(19/52/0)
Deep Fire + Imp. CS
you have torment of the weak in there and its a good talent and everything but its useless for fire pvp. it only increases the damage on frostbolt, fireball, frostfire bolt, arcane missiles, and arcane barrage. I wouldnt use any of these in fire as pvp :/
you also have firestarter in there too, i personaly always forget to use it becuase like you said, if you use blast wave or dragons breath its probably to save your life.
other than that its pretty good, take a look at my spec and tell me what you think =P
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#of0ifzMZfVfbRhhufkr0st:Ldmom
you have a really good point.... i hadn't thought much about it.. I think i was reverting back to my pve spec and thinking that TTW is an almost necessary talent, but you're right, it's pretty useless for a fire build in pvp. i'd probably shift those points to arcane shielding or maybe magic attunement (for the extra cast range on poly).
the problem with firestarter isn't necessarily a matter of forgetting to use it... for me the issue is the fact that you have to actually mouse over the area you want to use it, and it's really hard to peg down a mobile target with a small AOE circle like firestarter.
your build is probably a bit more like what i was going for. i think I threw mine together in like 15 minutes. i like it, and i'll probably add it into the build list.
Post by
354473
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Post by
79146
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
StrangerWifCandy
maybe i'm misunderstanding what you mean, but you can only have one person sapped per rogue.Opening on a sapped target removes sapped does it not? This means the partner is open for a second sap, gasp! Spread the secret.
And yes, thorns DOES own rogues, especially if it's stacked on ret aura. Spellsteal thorns asap, and it helps with stealing HoF's later on anyways. You need the sap on that paladin though, it's very crucial. After the bubble, you're free to burst down either the paladin or his partner after a reset.
If the map is Dalaran, good luck lulz, you need it.
Post by
79146
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Achloryn
maybe i'm misunderstanding what you mean, but you can only have one person sapped per rogue.Opening on a sapped target removes sapped does it not? This means the partner is open for a second sap, gasp! Spread the secret.
yeah yeah yeah.. i wasn't thinking. :P
And yes, thorns DOES own rogues, especially if it's stacked on ret aura. Spellsteal thorns asap, and it helps with stealing HoF's later on anyways. You need the sap on that paladin though, it's very crucial. After the bubble, you're free to burst down either the paladin or his partner after a reset.
again, the problem here is that most pallys aren't going to sit there and be sapped.. it tells them that a rogue is right on top of them, stealthed, and they can trinket the sap and consecrate immediatly forcing the rogue out of stealth.
or, they can eat the sap, wait for the cheap shot that's bound to come along and either trinket that or eat THAT as well, waiting for the inevitable kidney shot to trinket/bubble out of, and then proceed to murder the rogue.
The only way to beat Ret/Druid as M/R is to have your Rogue use Vanish every time he gets to 50% hp and use Deadly/Wound.
yeah, but the problem here is the cooldown on stealth. if the rogue has preperation, then he can use it twice pretty quickly. if not, it's a 3 minute cooldown, untalented, down to two minutes by going only a couple tiers in the combat tree. ... but after that it's a moderatly long cooldown, and with the rather squishyness of rogues vs a ret pally, getting below 50% won't take long.
Post by
79146
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
StrangerWifCandy
And yes, thorns DOES own rogues, especially if it's stacked on ret aura. Spellsteal thorns asap, and it helps with stealing HoF's later on anyways. You need the sap on that paladin though, it's very crucial. After the bubble, you're free to burst down either the paladin or his partner after a reset.
again, the problem here is that most pallys aren't going to sit there and be sapped.. it tells them that a rogue is right on top of them, stealthed, and they can trinket the sap and consecrate immediatly forcing the rogue out of stealth.
or, they can eat the sap, wait for the cheap shot that's bound to come along and either trinket that or eat THAT as well, waiting for the inevitable kidney shot to trinket/bubble out of, and then proceed to murder the rogue.
If they trinket the sap and try to destealth the rogue, they've just lost the fight. They're now completely vulnerable to a full Blind or Sheep, for NOTHING. Any rogue worth his salt, saps at max range (already barely out of range of consecrate/divine storm) and instantly starts moving away from the target in case they try a stupid stunt like that.
Whenever the pally trinkets like that, I usually start forcing his cooldowns (HoJ, Bubble, HoF) solo, and then we (my partner opens after the HoF for a CS>5pt KS) switch to his partner after his bubble when we can completely control him.
Post by
79146
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
nerform
rogue (multi/prep) dueling tip
he will try to sap you (and he will because range of sap is better then your AE for example)
when you get sap (make sure your IceBarrier is up before that) just stay still and don't blow any CDs
most of the rogues will start with
Garrote
just wait for this 3 sec silence to fade away most likely you IceBarrier will break and freeze him in place
now blink! and pop your WE out
rogue will use
CoS
or trinket + sprint to catch you.
1. if CoS is used IceBlock when he get close ...he will do few hits and
Vanish
when he do that you have to catch him with pet nova. if you catch him with pet nova he is toast ...trinket will be still up but he will use it too and then he is hopeless..
2. if trinket is used we can use pet nova to stop him now he must use CoS and we have to IceBlock.. if not using CoS start casting frostbolt and he will use it then IB and he is out of CDs again ...
im bit new to duels but that work out last night we few rogues :)
PS Sorry for my bad english :)
Post by
blueshoes
Just noticed nerform's post on rogue dueling and realised there werent many posts on rogue dueling here.
A full CD battle between frost mage and rogue has always been one of the tightest contests. Strategies range from trying to out dps the rogue , to getting a polymorph off onto the rogue and restarting the fight on the mages terms. This second strategy is the one ive chosen to detail:
As of WOTLK - many people feel that this rivalry between the classes has gone in favor of the mage. With talents such as "Shattered Barrier (Nova on Ice Barrier Break)" It is certainly alot easier to duel against rogues than in the "old days". That being said - for someone new to being a mage this rogue v mage duel is quite challenging.
Just in case:
CLOS = Cloak of Shadows = 90% spell resist for a few seconds
Sprint = 70% movement increase'
Vanish = Instant stealth thing.
Here is how a "ordinary" battle for a mage should go with a rogue:
-Put Ice Barrier up obviously. This shouldnt need saying. However, something to remember is that a good rogue will attack just after you put it up so you cannot instantly reapply it after it breaks.
-Rogue opens with garrote/ambush depending on spec etc - eat this damage with your barrier
-By this time your barrier breaks and nova's the rogue in place, follow the nova with an insta deep freeze. Why? This battle is about two major things: Control and Damage. Many people forget that deep freeze can be used defensively as a stun as well as an offensive shatter combo tool. Against a rogue who obtains alot of burst particulary in the 5 seconds after coming out of stealth (full energy + opening moves) its essential to stop this burst damage. Thus a deep freeze will stop the rogue and leave us with some room to maneuver. Of course you can try without using deep freeze - but for a newbie i would suggest this rather than running the risk of CLOS + Damage which will force a iceblock and as we see later - you should only use iceblock after burning the rogues CD's
-Okay so the deep freeze can be trinketed and followed by a vanish or CLOS
*** If CLOS = Blink. Many mages here iceblock but this is unecessary. Why iceblock when you can blink forcing the rogue to burn sprint (or Shadowstep but there arent shadowstep rogues around nowadays). The rogue will then play kidney shot or Cold bLood + Evicerate and with blink on CD NOW YOU ICEBLOCK (this way you burn his sprint)! He will vanish - try to AOE him out but if you dont it doesnt matter - You have just burnt a rogues sprint/trinket/CLOS/VANISH and you have used iceblock Not a bad trade.... Admittedly you are probably on relatively low health but resist the urge to evocate. He will just sap and you have wasted a CD. Instead repeat step one and now our rogue is running out of CD's. When he reopens - even if deep freeze is on CD instantly blink (since he has no way of getting next to us to kidney shot) and now just in the nick of time (you are probably realllly loww on health) poly now and restart fight where he has nearly everyhting on CD (Remember to evocate).
*** If Vanish = AOE/IceBarrier Reapply Ice Barrier ASAP if you can if not you should still be near where he vanished thus one or two arcane explosions wont hurt. Assuming our rogue is a good rogue and gets away from the AOE for reopener, if our barrier isnt up usually blink ASAP forcing sprint then iceblock. If barrier is up let it break then blink and cast poly. If you get the poly off - the rogue is screwed: Evoc, Repoly, Water elemetal, shatter and go from there. If the rogue CLOS and Sprints - Iceblock. A rogue with sprint CLOS and full boat of energy = iceblock. since vanish is on CD here - come out after CLOS is finished with a nova. Poly Him and start the fight on your own terms. (Evocate etc).
-Doesnt trinket the deep freeze? Cast a polymorph to land after the deep freeze. Now anticipate a trinket by precasting polymorph so that if the poly is trinketed you are already halfway to repolying the rogue.This will force either one of the above CLOS/Vanish options - just follow the same directions as above.
Other tips:
-Mana Barrier - I will go as far as to say for a beginner - DO NOT USE! This spell is terrible for a frost mage if you dont know how/when to use it. There is nothing worse then going oom against a rogue. Dueling many rogues first before deciding how/when to use the spell.
-Deep freeze - Remember this is a damage AND control fight. Use this at the start as stated above to force cooldowns from the rogue. That way, by the time you need it again it will be up on CD xD
-Polymorph - This spell will save your life. Do not try to out dps the rogue - restart the fight with rogue in a polymorph on your terms.
-Evocation - Against a rogue who knows what he is doing - This spell will be always needed. Poly + Evoc is an excellent way to regain lost mana/health against a rogue opening.
-Water elemental - pop him when the fight is on your terms. An alterniative is to pop him early to make use of the pet nova when the rogue vanishes. Either is suitaible but remember if you pop ele too early - the rogue can simply kill the elemental.
-In my notes i dont mention the use of blind - Trinket this.
-Icy Veins - With 3.1 not everyone has the Icy Veins glyph but if you do - save this for the fight restsart so you can cast frostbolts without being affected by mind-numbing poison.
-Blink - Do not be scared to use this frequently to gain DISTANCE. A good rogue will not kidneyshot you unless your blink is on CD. Thus waiting for the "stun" is not always a good option - since he wont stun you! As the fight goes on and he burns his Cd's (especially sprint in this case) dont be afraid to blink for the distance.
-The main rogue spells to keep track of are:
***Vanish
***CLOS (Cloak of Shadows)
***Sprint
***Kidney shot (probably less necessary but always nice to know whether you can blink without being stunned)
-In the notes- Preparation isnt mentioned. If a rogue uses preparation in a duel then this justifys you using cold Snap.
-Cone of Cold - Not really mentioned above but this should be used every time the rogue gets remotely close to you. Obviously you wouldnt run right NEXT to the rogue to use this.
The key as with any class duel - is to practice. You should be able to defeat all but perhaps the BEST rogues with your Cd's. As you get better - a few of these CD's wont be needed but for starters - this is perhaps the best way to duel a rogue. Just keep in mind that this is a beginner dueling guide, and making your own adaptions as you see fit will come with time.
Hope this helps,
Blue
Post by
79146
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Achloryn
don't think i've abandoned this thread.. i'll admit i've been very disheartened with the status of mage pvp as of late, but i do plan on a big addition in the next few days with the enchantments and gemming and such.
Post by
Achloryn
Updated, added the non-profession enchants portion
here
. I've got only one page left for gems, gear and professions... Lets hope that's enough.
Post by
380513
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Post by
380513
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
243007
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Achloryn
Focus Magic - 1 point - Increases the target's chance to critically hit with spells by 3%. When the target critically hits the caster's chance to critically hit with spells is increased by 3% for 10s. Cannot be cast on self.
My thoughts: For arenas, this can be good to put on your healer/other caster DPS in the group. For BGs, it's worthless because there's nothing saying you'll be near enough to the other caster (or that they'll live long enough) for you to reap the benefits. Another choice call.
Focus Magic has an unlimited range. Means that you'll get the crit. Better than BGs than arena: more crits. Imagine if you start the battle with your entire group buffed with this. 1 point for crazy crits for you and your group.
ah, i didn't know it had an unlimited range.. i'll be sure to change that.
Post by
StrangerWifCandy
Keep spellstealing Ice Barrier+Frost Ward, never use Mana Shield, and spam instants when he has no defenses.You'll quickly work through his health with your pets. Line up your shatter combo with another Frost Nova+IL to force a blink. If the mage trinketed earlier, use WE Freeze into a DF+ILx2 to force an Ice Block. If it was an Ice Block, use a regular shatter combo FB+IL on a WE Freeze at the last second.
Can't Mana Shield be Spell Stolen as well? If not I dont see any major problem with having it on as your opponent may need more mana to steal your barrier in the long run.
Yes, I start off fights with mana shield up, and even slow fall just to add another buff to pointlessly burn mana on. However, if your ice barrier gets stolen and your mana shield is still up you need to get rid of it ASAP. I have a hotkey that /cancelaura Mana Shield for quick removal. When you see they have it up, as I suggested, go offensive and mana burn him to oblivion.
*EDIT* Oh and Achloryn, you should edit the previous guide to link to this one. A good idea is to probably just change every post in it into a link to this topic. The Helpful Threads thread that's stickied still links to the old one, which is what concerns me.
Nevermind
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