Post by Qlix
youre both wrong... and both right at the same time. He certainly doesnt have the raid buffed HP to back up what hes saying. Hes on the right track though, but seems as though hes not yet to the gear level needed to do what hes trying to do.
For me the target was 45k buffed.. then start stacking agility/crit/str for threat gen and Savage Defense.
as was posted in another thread (and was explained much better)
You know, in fact those 'DPS-oriented' gear pieces could be equal to or even better than 'standard' tanking pieces after some careful observation of the current content the Bear is tanking. Why? Read on...
Some napkin math and comparisons (taking into account SotF 3/3, ImpMotW 2/2 and Blessing of Kings in a raid environment, values before DR, Dire Bear Form):Metallic Loop of the Sufferer
62 agility becomes ~74 and gives ~1.75% dodge, 148 armor and ~0.9% crit
63 stamina becomes 103 and gives 1030 HP
.Final stats: 1.75% avoidance, 148 armor, 1.84% crit, 1.1% haste, 92AP (23 shield), 1030HP.The Leviathan's Coil
63 strength becomes 75 and gives 150AP (37.5 shield)
94 stamina becomes 153 and gives 1530HP
32 defense rating gives 0.26% dodge and miss, 0.52% avoidance
34 dodge rating gives 0.85% dodge
.Final stats: 1.37% avoidance, 448 armor, 150AP (37.5 shield) and 1530HP.
Important differences: the agility based item provides ~0.4% more avoidance and almost 2% more chance for shield, while the strength based item provides 500 more HP. Basically it is all about trading health for avoidance and 'active mitigation' (I call it active since Savage Defense provides mitigation on proc, not constant, passive).
As a general trend, the 'standard' tanking pieces give more mitigation (only if they have bonus armor, otherwise the difference from Savage Defense is negligible) and health, while 'DPS' items give more avoidance, a higher uptime for Savage Defense and superior TPS capabilities through crit, haste, ArP etc.
The issue we are looking at is the one mentioned by mareimbri
as well: the fact that in high end raid content, bosses hit like trucks. Obviously, the priority is to be prepared for the worst case scenarios (unlucky streaks of not dodging / being missed). This is because one of the basic rules of tanking is this:
As tank, your survivability should not translate in 'taking as little damage as possible' but rather in 'being able to take the most damage possible without dying
In raid conditions, most bosses usually wield one weapon with very high damage, on a 2 second swing timer. The best example I can give in order to illustrate the survivability concept is General Vezax (10 man) when under the effect of Surge of Darkness
. Usually Vezax hits for about 40000 base damage per swing. With a full tank spec and raid buffs, he hits me for about 14000. When he casts SoD, his base damage increases by 100%, up to 80000. Using Barkskin, I take about 21000-22000 damage per hit (maximum 5 hits in those 10 seconds). Using my balanced tanking gear, with all the important raid buffs, I reach about 48000 HP (and ~52% avoidance). This means I can take 2 hits back to back from Vezax during SoD and still be alive. In fact I could have 45000 HP and still achieve the same performance.
This threshold where I can survive two consecutive hits (commonly translated as 'the 5 second rule' - survive for 5 seconds without healing) from such a hard hitting boss without heals is what I usually call being a viable tank. As long as I maintain my HP above 45000, I can optimally tank Vezax. In Tier 8 content there is no gear that would allow me to survive 3 consecutive hits (with no healing).
As such, the value of 45000 HP (give or take) is probably the HP sweet spot for stamina gearing. Any more stamina won't make any difference against such raid bosses. But any more avoidance surely would.
So now I have 48000 HP and 52% avoidance. I use standard tank pieces with strength/defense/dodge. If I would change them for agility based pieces, I could trade up to 3000 HP for about 3% more dodge and more crit - meaning higher avoidance and also higher Savage Defense up time.
Once the tank has reached the standard 5 second survivability threshold for the raid content he is tanking, he can start thinking about accumulating more avoidance and TPS oriented stats. From this point on, agility based items become the superior option for the discerning Bear Tank.
PS: about the meaning of 'upgrade'...
The decision of whether an item is an upgrade or not isn't simply saying 'oh, it gives me more stamina, it's an upgrade' or the same about avoidance. An item is an upgrade as long as it improves your survivability and threat generation when measured against the content you are currently tanking, the hardest hits you will receive, under what conditions, single or dual wielding bosses and so on.
As a general rule of thumb, more avoidance is always welcome; but as long as you are under the '5 second rule' threshold in your current raid content, you should prioritize stamina.
twas more of an itemization post but it outlines the reasoning for some of the things your guild mate suggests