BM hunter head question

Post by CyboKid

Hi guys,

I was wondering which of the following you find to be the best:
or Deadly Retinal Armor

I just had the crown drop and using the deadly retinal armor at the present, so wondering if it would be better to change :)

Post by Zakkhar

Considering Crown has awfull lot of useless haste and the goggles can be socketed with whatever secondary stat you need (i had mine with exp/hit/crit), goggles win. Even though they give 49 less AGI and about 126 less secondary stats.

That general rule applies to all items with haste (crit/mastery/hit/exp is waaay better).

Post by felhunter

i agree with zakkhar, the goggles win since you can get hit/crit, expertise/crit or even hit/expertise.

totally worth lowering the stats slightly too avoid useless haste

Post by TheRazorsEdge

Disagree with previous posters.

First of all, it's 69 AGI difference and 166 secondary stats. Second, that helm effectively has 374 haste since you're reforging it anyway.

The breakdown becomes 69 AGI, 743 crit, 374 haste, 249 vs two cogwheels with 600 .

Since crit is our preferred stat anyway, it's basically 69 AGI + 992 + 374 haste vs 1200 .

Or: 69 AGI + 374 haste vs 208 . Even if haste were worth almost nothing, it would be close.

---

The raid finder piece is slightly better. If you have not crafted the Eng helm yet, I certainly would not bother. If you have, they are probably so close that it depends on whether you'd want to buy gems and reforge gear for a marginal upgrade.

I raid somewhat seriously, so I would use the RF helm regardless. But you may not want to drop 500+ gold for a small theoretical DPS boost.

Post by Zakkhar

Disagree with previous posters.First of all, it's 69 AGI difference and 166 secondary stats. Second, that helm effectively has 374 haste since you're reforging it anyway.
Wierd, item comparison tool showed the stats i named before.

The breakdown becomes 69 AGI, 743 crit, 374 haste, 249 vs two cogwheels with 600 .

Since crit is our preferred stat anyway, it's basically 69 AGI + 992 + 374 haste vs 1200 .
I dont know where you got that 992 from. I assume you meant crit in there.

Post by TheRazorsEdge

Wierd, item comparison tool showed the stats i named before.

Perhaps it was not accounting for gems properly. The RF piece has -11 AGI but gains +80 AGI from the Deadly gem.

The breakdown becomes 69 AGI, 743 crit, 374 haste, 249 vs two cogwheels with 600 .

Since crit is our preferred stat anyway, it's basically 69 AGI + 992 + 374 haste vs 1200 .
I dont know where you got that 992 from. I assume you meant crit in there.

I highlighted it for you in my original quote. I simplified the crit + reforge on the RF piece.

This makes the estimate more conservative, as the RF helm has more crit (best stat) than you can get on the Eng helm.

This whole analysis assumes that the player can cap expertise and hit without requiring the relevant cogwheel. It is very easy to do so even in dungeon blues, and capping should never be an issue above 450 ilvl.

Post by Nooska

Well, since you can't reforge to a stat thats alreayd on, it becomes a matter of 832 useful secondary rating versus 1200 useful secondary rating.
Adding in the secondary from the socket its 160 more secondary rating for a total of 992.
Split like this (we will ignore hit/exp and assume you can cap this elsewhere for a compariosn that inherently favors the crown);
743 crit and 249 mastery and +69 agi
versus
600 crit and 600 mastery.

Crit and mastery being about equal that means
69 agi versus 208 secondary rating.

Heading over to the BM guide where I have some math for socket boni and secondary stats, we find that ~80 rating is worth ~30 agi, so we solve for that and get that the rating is worth 2.6 units, and the agi is worth 2.3 units.

This means that for dps the goggles are superior, though not by so much that I would suggest getting them if you don't have them around.
This comparison neatly ignores the thing most in favor of the goggles - that you will never waste stats on them - and if you are trying to reach hit/exp cap, then the goggles win hands down with 1200 points of accuracy rating.

Post by Zakkhar

Wierd, item comparison tool showed the stats i named before.

Perhaps it was not accounting for gems properly. The RF piece has -11 AGI but gains +80 AGI from the Deadly gem.
nah, i gemmed them and reforged before looking at it.
This whole analysis assumes that the player can cap expertise and hit without requiring the relevant cogwheel. It is very easy to do so even in dungeon blues, and capping should never be an issue above 450 ilvl.
Its not about capping, its about ability to reforge less desired stats to more desired stats and to be on exact caps and not much higher. It becomes way easier the more items with desired stats you have.

Post by TheRazorsEdge

Its not about capping, its about ability to reforge less desired stats to more desired stats and to be on exact caps and not much higher. It becomes way easier the more items with desired stats you have.

The desired stat is always crit (since we will always reforge to hit/exp caps), and the RF piece has more of it.

On other pieces, we will always reforge the non-crit stat into hit/exp if necessary to cap, so the lack of either of those two stats is really not a concern.

Post by Nooska

Actually, its the other way around, the non-desired stat is haste, period. We can always reforge hit or exp to crit or mastery.

Post by Zakkhar

Actually, its the other way around, the non-desired stat is haste, period. We can always reforge hit or exp to crit or mastery.

Yeah, exactly what i meant.

Post by Twizelbang

With the new patch in place & being able to upgrade the item level of gear.

I think Crown of the Doomed Empress would work out better, since i don't think the Cogwheels can be upgraded. Anyone else have any ideas if they get effected by the item level upgrade ability ?

Post by Zakkhar

I dont think they are affected, but still...why would you want to waste VP to upgrade that crappy head?
Why not buy Hawkmaster's Headguard instead?

Post by Twizelbang

I dont think they are affected, but still...why would you want to waste VP to upgrade that crappy head?
Why not buy Hawkmaster's Headguard instead?

Upgrade is so easy & if you don't have the Shado-pan -Revered, then why not upgrade it ?
By the time you get Revered you will have loads of Justice Points, to spend on what ? Same goes with Valor Points, you can farm them so quick.. it doesn't matter.

It's impossible to run dry on Justice points, Valor points.... With how many options you get given to get them. So perhaps this option is what this person might like to do.

This is a option you can choose.. a DPS upgrade is always nice. You don't have to decide to waste Valor points, if you lack them, but then thats just common sense.....

Post by Zakkhar

I dont think they are affected, but still...why would you want to waste VP to upgrade that crappy head?
Why not buy Hawkmaster's Headguard instead?

Upgrade is so easy & if you don't have the Shado-pan -Revered, then why not upgrade it ?
Upgrade is so easy? it costs you 1,5 week of capping VP. Thats easy for you and you dont have shado pan revered yet? It took me about 3,5 weeks to get there from lvl 90 ding. You can get 500 short of honored just by doing the questline.

By the time you get Revered you will have loads of Justice Points, to spend on what ? Same goes with Valor Points, you can farm them so quick.. it doesn't matter.
Justice points? And you will use them for what? Upgrading your blue quality gear? removed
Actually farming justice is slower than farming VP, plus as i already mentioned VP has a cap kinda.

It's impossible to run dry on Justice points, Valor points.... With how many options you get given to get them. So perhaps this option is what this person might like to do.
Do we play the same game?
Justice points sources goes very slow (no you cant do cata normals to farm it) and has no weekly cap (but has a max cap of 4k).
Valor points sources. Weekly cap of 1000, absolute cap of 3000 (i think the 1k reduction was to force players to do more dailies). So doesnt matter how many great ways of getting it, you cant get more than 1000 per week. And you rather spend 1500 to upgrade itemised head to 491, than farm the rep and get waaaay better itemised one 489 for 2250?

This is a option you can choose.. a DPS upgrade is always nice. You don't have to decide to waste Valor points, if you lack them, but then thats just common sense.....
With 1000 weekly cap and 3000 absolute cap you kinda HAVE TO decide. Else its a waste.
Also i am fairly sure there are plenty of better itemised gear worth upgrading. To upgrade 13 slots of valor gear you need 20 weeks of valor capping. GL HF.(##RESPBREAK##)12##DELIM##Sas148##DELIM##There is no need to be rude with the tone in your text here. I've edited a bit to make it less intense and you and Twizelbang have received a warning. You can view my message to him below.

Post by Twizelbang

This is a option you can choose.. a DPS upgrade is always nice. You don't have to decide to waste Valor points, if you lack them, but then thats just common sense.....

removed(##RESPBREAK##)12##DELIM##Sas148##DELIM##Both yourself and Zakkhar are speaking to each other in a very condescending rude manner. I do feel Zakkhar started it to an extent with his tone but that doesn't give you any right to go further with an abusive response. If you feel you're being treated badly, report the post for us to take action and do not make a post of your own. You've both received a warning.

Post by Twizelbang

If anyone hasn't used www.tankspot.com... please check out the weekly Marmot, Lore does have some rather interesting idea's about "what Not" to spend valor points on.

Weekly Marmot for 28th Nov.

In this he talks about why "not" to upgrade the Rep / valor gear & to upgrade LFR instead ( as a option ) not set in stone etc... since it will work out better. Spending Valor points on Rep gear & then upgrade it, isn't worth it. (my own words) Lore does a better job :)

I agree with his concept.. i wouldn't spend my valor points on Rep gear. Unless i have no other options. Since RNG is the deciding factor. So with this idea, you will not run dry of Valor points. Unless you mindless use Valor points on things that can be upgraded rather quick. Most is just common sense....

Post by Nooska

How you got the gear has no determining factor in whether you want to upgrade it.

What does, is that you have a cap per week and a total cap on VP (1k and 3k respectively). That means it takes 1.5 weeks to upgrade any item fully. This is a lot of time to invest in a single piece, so what you ened to look for is which item provides the best dps upgrade in a vacuum, and then look at what other options you have for upgrading said item. Normal tier items (496) would be a good place to start, as you won't likely be replacing those with a random drop just because it may be better itemized - after all the tier boni need to be factored in. Weapon is also a good place, and Taoren, the Soul Burner would be the best place to start if you have gotten it, as it will, with full upgrades, be better than any other weapon untill you get the normal mod version of it (because of the extra 500 agi from the sha-touched socket).

Apart from that, you will likely get a better dps upgrade for your valor by buying VP gear rather than upgrading a lower piece of gear - simply because the potential of the VP gear (or raid drop) is greater with the same time investment.

BM hunter head question

Post Reply