Community Problems

Post by ProsperoVII

I think we should talk about the WoW community. Yes. We should do that right now. In this thread for example. Please leave the arguments about whether the Heroics dungeons are too hard outside. And avoid the discussions about how broken the Tol Barad battleground seems.

Does anyone else remember some point on the WoW timeline when things have been more debated than now? Remember when the official forums were filled with nothing except simple things like how much <Class A> hates <Class B> and how Huntards should loot everything? Personally Im glad that Ghostcrawler wrote that arguably condescending Blog-thingie about how we should all learn how to play instead of complaining. Because we might have needed to hear that from someone with such high ranking within the community. But has anyone else looked over both the Wowhead forums and the official forums and then compared that with community forums from almost all the other major MMORPGS? We kinda suck. There has been this huge on-going clash between the self-appointed Cata Hardcore and the Wrath Babies (or whatever those folks wanna be called). Its not even something that I really need to be pointing out. Its pretty much omnipresent in all aspects of the game. Anyone else think this sucks? Its quite possible that Im having more fun in this expansion than Ive ever had within WoW. But Im liking the community less and less. Anyone else feel that way?

This was really therapeutic. Im feeling much better now. Thanks. XD
Please discuss this. Challenge me. Attack me. Whatever you wanna do!

Post by Interest

Post by ProsperoVII

Im glad Im not alone in thinking this. Its not only that there are more arguments and more generally hostile interactions. But the whole quality of the environment has really changed. Its more like the whole community seems gloomier and generally more hostile.

Im liking the description as bitter though. That seems the right word. Bitter.

Post by HoleofArt

I agree. Personally I believe it's because Blizzard is really trying to take all the solid things they've established in the last 6 years, and then redo the rest with this expansion. Truth be told, it isn't going as well. They aren't juggling all this work well. Is it due to many of their lead developers going to their new MMO? Maybe. Is it laziness/neglect, and the developers are getting lax with the mentality of, "People are going to play this game no matter what we do. lul."? Maybe.

Unfortunately, I can't make a comparison between the state of the game back in Vanilla and now, as I didn't start playing until early BC, and didn't start progression raiding until WotLK, but it just seems like Blizzard is really trying to change a lot, and people aren't happy with most of it. That's all it boils down to.

It also really doesn't help that almost all the blue posts responding to well-thought out concerns and suggestions are in a condescending tone, or a very indifferent "We're working on it.. maybe." attitude. It's just disappointing because (I don't think I'm the only one who thinks this, either) it really seems like Blizzard is much less professional in this expansion. I personally believe it's because their main resources are going to the new MMO.

My 2c.

Post by ProsperoVII

It does seem to radiate from the development team. But that should not have that much effect on the community. Its kinda sad to see things this way though. Especially when theres so much buzz about this new MMO from Blizzard. The real problem Im having now would be that the general feeling from both the game and the forums (and even coming from Blizzard) resembles that feeling you get when a raiding guild starts falling apart. Most of the officers have starting flaking off to the next guild. Everyone who remains spends reach raid night arguing. Not that Im saying the end of WoW might be in the near future. Blizzard could probably milk this cash-cow for another decade with ease before packing up and moving on. But its the same feeling nonthelesss!

Post by 754752

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Post by HoleofArt

The real problem Im having now would be that the general feeling from both the game and the forums (and even coming from Blizzard) resembles that feeling you get when a raiding guild starts falling apart. Most of the officers have starting flaking off to the next guild. Everyone who remains spends reach raid night arguing.

Perfectly put. It really does feel that way, only with such a big product like this, it's going to be far more dragged out.

I honestly don't understand why the Blues have almost all turned into !@#$s, though. Just read any of their recent responses that Wowhead has in their blogs. All ridiculously condescending, or just plain "no u" responses. It's like they really don't give a *!@# and just post to maintain an appearance.

For instance, the original proposed Hunter Survival nerfs were going to drop us 3k in dps. 3,000 dee-pee-%^&*ing-s. We're only 400 DPS ahead of Unholy DKs, and 700 DPS ahead of Assassination Rogues. There was pages upon pages of math backed up by solid, reasonable, complaints. There were 2 Blue posts. The original stating, "lolumad. Don't worry, we're buffing you by making Cobra/Steady scale from Haste, and that justifies the Survival nerf." It's done that since it was implemented.
The next Blue post was "Oh, we meant that we're changing the way it affects Cobra/Steady shot.. yeah, that's it." And then later stated the "change" to Cobra/Steady wouldn't affect our DPS at all if they did change it.

They then reduced the nerf with no further comments.

I honestly just don't know why Blizzard can't just acknowledge when they @#$% up. Same thing is happening in the Feral Druid shapeshifting nerf thread. Tons of better solutions, but will they even post in the thread showing they've read it? Nope. Instead they post in random other threads that don't at all help the community, and usually come across highly condescending. It's just disgusting.

It really doesn't help when developers act like that when everyone is already in this bitter mentality.

Post by ProsperoVII

There are times when Im okay with them saying: Its our game. We make things how we want, and trust that things will be done right. For the most part things usually are done right! Example. The Druid shapeshifting thing? Im a Druid. That effects me. But Im not really gonna complain because that seems somewhat fair and I can at least understand where the thought comes from. But the community really feels the effects when the "Umadbro" comes out as the response for reasonable questions. Thats not the cause for this bitterness though. Just another result.

I really agree with MasterHeretics thoughts. Except I wanna challenge the statement that we cannot judge the general population of WoW from the forum population. Both populations are huge. One much more so than the other. But still significant numbers of players spend time on the official forums and these numbers are large enough that we can draw vague conclusions. The reason that forums experience much more of this behavior because that happens to be one of their main purposes. To handle these issues. These issues have also leaked far too much into the game itself.

Post by Kalisha

Its quite possible that Im having more fun in this expansion than Ive ever had within WoW. But Im liking the community less and less. Anyone else feel that way?

You know, I usually avoid this type of thread like the plague and chalk it up to people being burnt out or bitter or whatever... but I'm right there with you.

I'm completely baffled about my feelings towards the game right now. I love Cataclysm. I think they did a spectacular job with everything and have no real complaints - yet I'm finding my desire to play (and even stalk the forums as much as I used to) is dwindling.

The community seems downright antagonistic towards just about everyone and everything, just for the sake of acting that way. At the risk of sounding like some crazed hippie, it's just not the kind of vibe I want to deal with if I don't have to.

Of course the obvious answer is to stick to your friends and avoid anyone outside of your personal bubble - but most of my friends have drifted away already and I'm having a hard time making friends in the current game. It's like I'm that awkward kid in high school all over again.

I don't think the blue posts (or their tone) are the problem, but rather a symptom of the real problem. I'm amazed they manage to remain as civil as they do when facing such open hostility on such a large scale.

Post by kemppy

i think the problem isnt so much blizz, yes i know they have not been doing things well, but there are trying, i know people in my guild (pre cata) who went monkey flinging ape @#%^ at the fact that blizz made it possible to get top end stuff WITHOUT ENTERING A RAID. i will admit i see there logic, and those that went off were up them self uber l33t ass wipes. But the one things i have seen in cata is that even the l33t have been finding it hard, and had to look deper into the class they play to do anything.

i think the main problem isnt blizz, but more the people playing, things got easy at the end and lazy people think it will be like that. and with cata being like BC and Vanilla were u had to know your class and had to CC mobs, and people who had it easy have realised thay cant play this game for crap.

i think ghostcrawler was best thing blizz could do, from what i have seen he has said it as is, and no matter how much he pisses people off, and in all honesty (this comin from someone off drama'mar) i think people need to grow a pair and try at this game and stop b%^$^&ng about everything, i like that things are hard, and i like wiping 100 times as long as i try new things and figure things out it is good.

i like to think about what will happen if i do x too y and what would be better to CC and everything, and i think people got used to button mashing this game through, i know someone who macro'd there entire rotation to 1 button, i also know people who while healing ICC woould be on FB as well.

i guess i am agreeing with troll that this isnt an easy expac and people in the communtiy need to grow a pair for the first time in there life and actually put time into this game doing research

kemppy is pissed and thinking i like it
peace out
p.s adamsm i love the new DP

Post by Adamsm

Most of the people who post the 'I want/I need/this should happen' and actual like complete arse holes about are using the anonymity of Interwebz to their advantage; IE can post whatever they want as it won't backfire on them....well.....for the most part. Beyond that, I don't go near the official forums for the most part; I can get the same information here, so I don't really need them.

As for Blizzard; I get people complaining about things, but they should realize that it is a company, and their purpose is to make money. Compared to some of the games out there, Blizzard does listen to the players....again, for the most part.

Post by reddwarf

Well, I've noticed the playerbase has by and large become much more hostile and unforgiving. It was bad enough Wrath when you could get free epics from sleeping thorough 5-mans and the people in 5-man groups threw fits like spoiled babies if it didn't take less than 10 minutes to blow through.

I see that mentality still in Cata; people who expect "flawless" runs of difficult dungeons and are quick to label the tank/heals/DPS as "fail" if anything remotely goes wrong. It's like the dungeons are exponentially harder than Wrath but people are still expecting AOE facerolls and complain when they don't get it or they actually have to take their time doing a dungeon; within reason of course. Expecting 3+ hours for a dungeon is nonsense but it shouldn't be a 20-minute zergfest like Wrath was with that "pull the whole room" garbage that you saw so often due to being able to just barrel through everything without any thinking process.

Also, to echo what Kalisha said: I feel the same way sometimes. I like the game, I like the challenge of the content but it seems less and less "interesting" for me to play because people are so hostile. I had to take a break from WoW for a while about a month ago and started playing another MMO and the community there is actually helpful and encouraging, while WoW's community is unhelpful and degrading. To put a perspective on things, in that game if you entered the first dungeon (about level 20ish) and said you were new and had never run it before, and had never tanked/healed it, you would get people that were helpful and a general air of "That's okay we'll help you out." and they would give praise if you did well. In WoW, if you enter a dungeon and say you're new, chances are you'll be berated, called a noob, or even outright kicked because someone is afraid they can't have a "smooth run" and just steamroll the place and that means it might take TIME to clear. Doubly so for a Heroic dungeon, which are downright HARD even if you know what you're doing. If I queued up and got, let's say, heroic Stonecore (I haven't done stonecore at all - even on regular, although of course I've watched TotalBiscuit's videos) and told the group I have never been there, I'll probably be kicked because they don't want to be helpful. It's this sense of entitlement and "I don't care about you, only what you can do for me" that is the real root of the problem.

Post by Interest

I forgot to mention one thing:

The community of WoW has gotten significantly larger as well, and there's a pretty noticeable sort of a pseudo-war of old (the olds being the so-called "elitists, hardcore, no-lifers, and so on and so forth") vs new (the news being the so-called "Wrath babies, casuals, bads" name them whatever you want) which, by the way, is a complete misconception, but it is how it is.

I have a feeling that community issues stream from this conflict. Haven't you noticed people tend to treat questions that seem absolutely newbie by not helping them, but instead by being snide, rude, or otherwise unpleasant. On the other side, though, some newbs are actually noobs (there is a difference) and refuse to learn and otherwise act rude and unpleasant as well, especially when criticized.

There's a lot more to this, such as name calling and "bad blood" on both sides, but it is how it feels now. It's probably been around since MMOs began, I think, but it has amplified in Wrath of the Lich King because of the high influx of subscribers, among other things such as a class to scapegoat (Death Knights), and content that was, quite frankly, considered easy to do (it was also quite easy to get endgame equipment through Emblems).

Clearly there are exceptions to my theory, as WoW players are quite diverse, just that some tend to be louder than others.

Either that or I'm just making up a bull%^&* theory. Thoughts?

Post by reddwarf

I agree with that as well, but I've noticed the "old" crowd (what would be called "grognards" in D&D) seem to be the most vicious and unhelpful. Maybe because "back in the day" they didn't have such a plethora of information and, now that it's available, they think everyone should spend time researching before asking? It just seems overall that the community is very unwilling to help even when it's a legitimate newbie question or the person asking seems like they're polite and need direction instead of the typical "herp derp tel me wat 2 do" kind.

That's another issue I have with WoW but that's another can of worms entirely - the notion that the game "requires" research and theory and you are a "scrub" if you aren't willing to research things first; very few games (assuming the average WoW player comes from another game whether it's a single-player RPG like Morrowind or tabletop RPGs or similar) actually require one to crunch numbers (or read posts of people who have already crunched those numbers) to actually be good at the game; it can help you be better but its not REQUIRED while in WoW if you aren't using the EJ-prescribed spec/gems/enchants/priority it gets you labeled as a bad player. In short, there's no option for experimentation with WoW, either you suck or you use the same cookie-cutter build as everyone else in your class/role that has been number crunched and theorycrafted to eke out every tiny bit of performance.

Post by Interest

I agree with that as well, but I've noticed the "old" crowd (what would be called "grognards" in D&D) seem to be the most vicious and unhelpful. Maybe because "back in the day" they didn't have such a plethora of information and, now that it's available, they think everyone should spend time researching before asking? It just seems overall that the community is very unwilling to help even when it's a legitimate newbie question or the person asking seems like they're polite and need direction instead of the typical "herp derp tel me wat 2 do" kind.

That's another issue I have with WoW but that's another can of worms entirely - the notion that the game "requires" research and theory and you are a "scrub" if you aren't willing to research things first; very few games (assuming the average WoW player comes from another game whether it's a single-player RPG like Morrowind or tabletop RPGs or similar) actually require one to crunch numbers (or read posts of people who have already crunched those numbers) to actually be good at the game; it can help you be better but its not REQUIRED while in WoW if you aren't using the EJ-prescribed spec/gems/enchants/priority it gets you labeled as a bad player. In short, there's no option for experimentation with WoW, either you suck or you use the same cookie-cutter build as everyone else in your class/role that has been number crunched and theorycrafted to eke out every tiny bit of performance.

Oh god. I completely forgot about that. Nice point.

Post by ProsperoVII

No I agree with Interest. Thats not complete bullshet. That really makes sense. But what Im not fully understanding would be how the failings of the last expansion can cause such problems this expansion. Things seem much better now. The whole series of conflicts seems unnecessary.

Being one of the 'Grognards' myself Im not sure I can see what you are talking about. But it seems fair to ask for additional research outside of the game because WoW (unlike Morrowind) has more to hold you responsible. When you make some novice mistake in Morrowind only one persons time has been wasted to fix that mistake. Online though, these mistakes waste 4 peoples time. Waste 9 peoples time. Waste 24 peoples time. This does not only happen within the WoW environment either. All online games have this to some extent. But we really have taken that to the extreme.

(On a sarcasm note: Tabletop RPG games revolve around number-crunching. But I do see the intended point.)

Post by Interest

No I agree with Interest. Thats not complete bullshet. That really makes sense. But what Im not fully understanding would be how the failings of the last expansion can cause such problems this expansion. Things seem much better now. The whole series of conflicts seems unnecessary.

To be honest, I think it has something to do with a combination of low morale and low expectations, which causes people to point out stuff they normally wouldn't, such as the annoying phasing bugs and so on. People do note the good parts of Cataclysm, but for some reason, the people who point out the bad just seem louder as a direct result of Wrath being a supposed disappointment and so on, in which complaints seemed more justified, and mob psychology won out.

Post by reddwarf

(On a sarcasm note: Tabletop RPG games revolve around number-crunching. But I do see the intended point.)

But number-crunching isn't viewed as required; in fact often in tabletop RPGs the number crunchers are the ones that are shunned and called "noob" for playing the game solely to be "leet" at it instead of for the experience of playing. In WoW it's the other way around and playing the game for the "experience" gets you laughed at.

I have played four editions of D&D and a few other RPGs. 3rd and 4th edition have number-crunching but it's not necessary and the majority of the gaming community looks down on the "min-maxers" and "munchkins" and their theorycraft. WoW, on the other hand, requires it because anything less runs up against the game's barriers so you MUST theorycraft and number-crunch or you won't be able to progress. Truthfully I consider that a design flaw but that's another subject.

Post by Pwntiff

Also, World of Darkness apparently has a lot less to min-max as well. But we all know the reason to play table-top/pen-and-paper games is to get together and get drunk.

Post by kemppy

i will admit i am what is meant to be classed as a "wrathbaby" i started half way through, but i have foound in my guild i know more than some people that have been playing since before BC, i will admit i dont know what it is like, but i know the lore and theory behind it all. one thing i do like is the fact i have to think if i want to play this game. i have a short attention spam (a goldfish has a longer memory) and one thing that makes me not want to play games when it is press a then b, i play an enh shammy and BM hunter, and to play them i have to think, and look what i am doing, and time everything.

i dont think it is a flaw that research is needed to play this game well, i think it is the one thing that sets it apart, any idiot can button mash, but to play wow it is mre than that, youo need to farm gold/mats, you need to work all the top to be the best, and yes i know other mmo's have this, but i think WoW is one of the few were u can button mash and get by, but to do well you need timing, and knowledge of the class you play, as i said BM hunter, that was in ICC (i will admit i wasnt pulling top of charts but i was holding my own well) i got BM to work cos i tried different things, and i played around with the class, and if i didnt then i wouldn't have got the worst PvE spec to work, and others in the guild i was in tried but failed misserable.

another thing WoW has is the fact that A may work for sally but B works for bob, the same class but it still is reliant on play style, and how much sally put into it over bob

Community Problems

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