Disrespect ret pallies? You betcha.

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Post by Duracell

Ret pallies are fine for PvE, we have 2 in our guild and they are amongst the most skilled players that we have. They often beat the other DPS and bring a huge amount of experience from other classes that they have played.

OP is listing things that bad -players- do, nothing to do with the class at all.

I think ret could do with repentance CD lowered to 30 secs with a 20 second CC against humanoids in PvE. I imagine such a viable CC would raise the status of Ret pallies in the same way the 2.3 changes altered the perception of prot pallies.

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Post by xaratherus

OP is listing things that bad -players- do, nothing to do with the class at all.

Quoted for truth.

Retribution Paladins don't have some sort of monopoly on pulling aggro off the tank.

Retribution Paladins don't hold the lone star for breaking crowd control.

Retribution Paladins don't take the cake when it comes to being a class/spec that requires a skilled player to pull it off.

I could take everyone of the arguments that OP made and tag them on almost any class. Mages who launch a fiery nuke at a mob after the Druid has up only one swipe is going to pull aggro; Rogues can (and do) frequently screw up crowd control by poison DoTing mobs; Hunters can wipe entire raids if they don't know how to control their shots and use their traps effectively.

This supposedly is some sort of reasoning behind why Ret pallies don't get invites. However, it appears to me that it's just a rehashing of the invalid stereotypes and arguments that cause people to call them "retn00bs" in the same way that people refer to "Huntards" when in fact a well-played Hunter is a huge asset to any raid.

We've got at least one Ret Paladin in our guild who raids regularly, and from what I understand he's pretty high on the DPS charts - and he's even more valuable because not only can he offer blessings (which regardless of what OP seems to think are highly useful in raids) but he can also step back and off-tank or off-heal when the situation calls for it.

Post by Lightrain

I think this started out as a gripe about bad players. I actually agree with the initial statement, that ret paladins are usually very stupid and don't play their class well.

HOWEVER! This does not include all ret paladins. I have seen some extremely leet ret paladins, and yes they are very useful, provide a raid asset in more ways then one, and can stay very high on the dps charts in EQUIVALENT gear as the other toons.

Every class is gear specific. This being said, mages, locks, shadow priests.... these are all very squishy toons due to the cloth they wear. They are MADE to do more dps so they kill before being killed. They are built to die faster, therefore made to kill faster.

Ret paladins are, IMO, the hardest dps class to play properly. I just taught a guild member how to play his, and made him respec to improve his pvp abilities. The ret class in general is made for people who can multitask and play a toon properly. You have a LOT of things to keep track of as a ret paladin in pvp compared to other toons. Maybe on par or more difficult then a mage to play properly in PVP situations.

Yes, noobs that want to pown horde will always be noobs. I dislike ret pali's for heroic groups because of their lack of cc. If i have 2 cc/dps toons in the group, and a ret pali is asking to get in, I would let them in, yes. I would also make sure they are buffed properly, and if not boot them in a heartbeat. I ran into 1 of these who had RF on, and had to wait 5 mins till he understood what I was telling him and finally turned it off. I was tank at the time, and I refuse to pull until all players know their jobs.

I will say, ret pali's do VERY well in raids. They are a big asset to a raid group, and should be treated as such. They also must know how to play their toon. A ret pali is more benefitial to a raid then a holy pali when played right, IMO. All you get out of a holy pali is a buff and heals. I'm not saying holy pali's aren't extremely useful, just stating a point.

Last comment (on topic), ret paladins do NOT get picked for heroic instances for the same reasons as fury and ms wars. They do a lot of damage, but have no cc abilities. That is the only reason I choose rogues over ret palis. Rogues are usually NOT on the top of the dps charts when I see them. Usually below a equally geared pali or ms/fury war.

As per the repentance buff. This would be very cool, and would make a ret paladin a desirable once agian. However, I believe in order to get a c/d reduce, it would have to be casted. I would gladly have a 1.5 sec casted repentance vs and instant cast with a cd. Then again, this is a great disrupt on a fleeing toon in pvp. Usually enough to get caught up to the toon and judge seal of justice on em so they can't run as fast and slay them faster. I agree that it shouldn't be as long of a c/d tho, maybe 30 sec cd with 10 sec talented c/d reduce. It is MADE for pvp, not cc. That is what ret pali's excel in, pvp and dps..

Post by zoomie

One question to the origional poster of this post.
You say ret pallys have the "I am god" complex.
Is there an invisible talent on my talent list that I don't see but you do see? I don't see a god talent in the ret tree.
It might be because its not there. It is becuase the people with the "I am god" complex are 13 year old kids living in their parents basement who think they can pwn some noobs. You could get the same attitude from a level 19 twink rogue.

And to the person who posted this, Ultramarine1302
"What I don't understand, is why Ret Spec is getting so much crap but
DW/Fury warriors are not. I belive those guys to be the most useless
of any spec, right next to shadow priest for heroics/raids."

How high is mage dps when they have no mana? How high is warlock dps when they have no mana? How high is elemental shaman dps when they have no mana? How high is the dps of any mana dependant class, when they have no mana? You obviously play a rogue or warrior, a class with on mana. When you get into the long boss fights that last 10-15 minutes and you are having to wand at times, or downrank spells because you are very low on mana and your mana gem, mana pot, and evocation are on cooldown, then you will see the value of a shadow priest. Constant mana coming back because a priests shadow damage restores mana to the party is so valuable that you lead me to believe that your guild can't even kill the first boss in Kara, or even MC with a full 40 main raid of 70s.
Nub. Just because your raid can't kill attumen doesn't mean that your really a raider. Even tempest keep and serpentshrine cavern aren't even real raids anymore unless you are on vash or kael. Wait until you get into mount hyjal and black temple before you considder yourself a raider, or someone who has raid experience.

Post by zoomie

One more thing to mr ultramarine1302
"My point: A shadow priest is not essential, however is a "nice to have." Same goes for DW/Fury warriors, Arms Warriors, Enhance shaman, Elemental Shaman, Ret Paladins, BM Hunters, Feral Druids and Balance Druids."

Quite a bit of the hunters in my guild are BM. I don't know exactly how they spec or play because I don't play a hunter. And at the same time I don't claim to know how to play one. But about feral druids? A feral druid is "nice to have"? I don't know about how you guys do on your attumen attempts but in my guild we depend on a druid tank for the Morogrim fight. I don't know the mechanics on that but after our MT, a prot warrior, took some huge non crit non crush hits, he was like umm ok, so were going to have a druid tank this.
Druids are, for some reason, better to tank that fight. Paladins are better for AOE tanking things, and warriors are better at single target tanking. My guild uses paladin tanks for Solarian in TK, Morogrim murlocs, the hunter and hunter pet from fathom lord fight in SSC, for trash in mount hyjal.... After all the T5 gear was basically designed for AOE tanking because of how much of it you do in MH. Anyway it seems you think there is a set way to play. "All paladins heal except one that tanks, all warriors tank, all priests are holy, all druids are resto, all shamans are resto........ Leave the dps up to mages and locks and hunters and rogues, the classes who MUST dps and don't provide any other roles." This appears to be the mindset you have. You are totally clueless on how important shadow priests are, feral druids, even ret paladins. If you think that there is one set way every class should play, and if someone plays some other way, its just a small benefit and is just "nice to have" then you clearly show how unsuccessful you are in raids.

Post by 102166

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Post by Lightrain

Um, I have to clarify here. There is a reason shadow priests are used, they return THE MOST mana. A pali judging seal of wisdom doesnt help the healers, and Mana spring isn't much better then a buff. The mana return of a shadow priest is much higher then any one of those, and probably all put together. If you add the others, you have a mana battery that lasts for days. Nice to have? Sure. I will take a shadow priest in my group ANY day! My low 60 shadow priest makes ramps a cake walk with all low toons. The return of one shadow priest far out weighs anything you are talking about. AND, they usually out dps mages and locks as well as rogues and dps class melee, AND can do it for longer because of their talents. Buffs and totems don't make or break a raid. 1 shadow priest in group with a holy pali, and that holy pali won't go oom for a really long time.

But, this isn't the discussion here. So please take this debate to the priest forums....

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Post by zoomie

It is nice to know you raided old world content back in the day. You know what that gets you nowadays? Nothing. Not even a golfclap. There are probably millions who are exalted with all those factions. Big deal.
Now what REALLY impresses me is your violet eye rep. Revered? I clearly see your raid experience.
What bug me is this.
5) Any serious pve guild would probably require their mages to have that ability that allows them to regen mana at an 1000% increase.
6) Warlocks should never ever go OOM, I hope you can guess why.

For your #5 comment, all mages should have evocation. I mean, its a trainable skill. Not even a talent. It was 2 years ago in the arcane tree but not anymore. I wouldn't even want to be around a mage who hasn't trained that. Besides it restores 60% of your mana. Before they changed it, it was 1500% mana regen for 8 seconds. Yet I did see a level 70 warlock in a pug run who never knew how to phase shift an imp. Might of been one of your alts.
As for your #6 comment, I am guessing you don't know why they should never go OOM, as you didn't know what you were talking about #5 either. Lifetap converts health to mana. And on top of that they have a ton of health. In fact when pally tanking murlocs on morogrim, we usually use a warlock that lifetaps so the paladin can get a little bit more heal aggro so the murlocs come straight to the pally instead of to someone else.
#8 I never said that was an endurance fight. All I said was that your too nubby to be able to down that boss. If you got lucky and downed him then you definatly can't beat moroes.

Post by blademeld

A Ret Pally cannot dps.
A Ret Pally cannot manage agro.
Agro=Damage done
A Ret Pally pulls agro from 1100 tps tank
Ret Pally must be doing damage beyound tps, if spec'd with threat
reducing talents and BoSalv
Ret Pally cannot dps

Plus, if a ret pally pulls threat off a 1.1k tps tank with bosalv, and the new salv talent, that must mean he's doing at least 1.8k dps. So, how can a ret pally "not damage" when he's CLEARLY pulling threat off the tank? (or you so say)

and if he's not hitting that high, how on god's green earth is he pulling off the tank?

UltraMarine1302 should have been ignored after this post

and mrmumkles, when we're talking threat generation, we're talking single target threat generation, I've easily pushed 4k TPS AoE tanking SH pre-kara gear

Post by 102166

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Post by Lightrain

I'm speachless..... I feel my brain hurting from the stupid argument.... According to UltraMarine, a raid will succeed as long as you have tank and heals..... Or so it looks, since those are the only NEEDED talents in a raid, never would a shadow priest, ret paladin, rogue, fury war, etc., never would they make or break a raid. Ok, we'll let him 2 man a raid.....

Yes, I'm being sarcastic, and a smart ass, and this is my last post in this string.

You can neglecting ANY dps class. Yes, gratz on pointing out the obvious Ultra. Shadow priest being one of the MORE useful of the whole lot, increasing the longevity of the raid. Yes, ret palis and shams do the same, BUT not as well. They do not do it as well BECAUSE of their other additions. This is a GIVE AND TAKE issue. Take one or the other. NO dps class will make or break a raid. But a raid will break without enough of them. Why not, since you already have DI, LOH, Battle res, SS, etc. whatever you've mentioned, (IDC anymore, I'm tired and don't know why I'm writing this anyways... It's going to be argued because everyone here is so narrow minded...) take the dps class that greater benefits the longevity of the raid by holding your healers, tank(since these are the raid breakers....), and dps up with health and mana from a very solid talent that works very well? Lets forget that every raid will have at least 2-5 paladins(I'm talking greater then kara here....) including at least one aoe tank, and one healer. Back to the issue here, there are a few select classes that do the same as a shadow priest, yes. How many of them do mana, health, and dps all at the same time? We are talking ONE toon here, not saying, well, this one over here can do this, and this one can do that. ONE toon's addition to the raid. We are not talking aiding the tank by freeing possible talent points. We are talking straight up, who does the most. If I have a shadow priest, who is near the top of the DPS charts, AND has a good healing contribution, AND helps the raid with mana return, why would I NOT pick that dps class? When they do it the best? What is the arguement here? If you want a raid clincher, how about the longevity of the raid's main cornerstones by assisting those that NEED it. This is called a GROUP encounter. You have MORE then ONE specific make or break toon. The makeup of the raid makes or breaks it. Every contribution helps the raid. I want the one that contributes the most. This being said, I'm sure you can squeeze enough room for ur sham, ret pali, and even your useless fury war. Hell, get 2 ret palis. That's 2 peeps you can DI on top of the holy pali that every raid above 10 toons has. Plus the tankadin, you can judge wisdom, light, and improved crusader. WOW!!!! I'm tired of this.

Lets pick on rogues now shall we? They don't contribute at all either........

MS wars?

Mages? They only have AI, that's useless past one mage in a raid.... and no mana return or health return during battle.

Dude, do you see the pattern here? Everyone is easily replaced when they are dps. Every tank is easily replaced by a better geared tank. Healers as well. You are talking about @#$% that gets you no where. Have you played a shadow priest in end game content? Do you know the abilities? Yes, a shadow priest will go oom before the end of a long fight. Priests always do, reguardless of spec. Lets leave out the holy priests too. They are useless since they can't make it thru either.

Lets check this out.... 5% return of mana on shadow dps. We'll pick a low number, 1000dps. That's 250 mp5 ADDED. 15% health return. That's 150 health per second to multiple targets simultaneously. You get a good dps rate out of that shadow priest, and your getting up to 400 mp5 there. I don't see ANYONE laughing at that number, especially when you add it to your healer's regen banks. Do you know what the mana spring or seals do? I don't claim to know a sham, so please, correct me if I'm wrong. I don't know if mana spring changes based on stats(I'm guessing not), or if it is a set rate, but 20 mp2 is 50 mp5. Seal of Wisdom returns a CHANCE of 74 mana per stike, and Seal of Light returns a CHANCE of 95 health per strike. The only beneficiaries to this would be a rogue, enh sham, or your beloved fury warrior. So usefull. Kinda like a raid buff to that shadow priest's work.

I hope this helps clear this up. I guess if you think that combined with a very healthy dps number is pretty negligible...... This IS what the shadow priest was MADE FOR! Don't be stupid. Buff usefulness only goes so far, and DI is the ONLY oh s hit button that will prevent a TOTAL wipe. It's less running that way I suppose. Gratz! This is assuming the target is out of aggro range of any mobs/boss, or isn't part of a timed or chain event.

I'm done. Fight amongst yourselves now. I'm going to bed. Let me know when your head turns brown. I think it may be peaking out the other side....

Post by 102166

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Disrespect ret pallies? You betcha.

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