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Post by
Trishi
So the last thing that Blizzard wants is one three minute fight that requires new players to actually study the class and learn how to blow their cds. They want people to go "oh, I can handle this" and hand over a subscription fee..
...So don't make quests below level 20 difficult to handle?
That arguement doesn't make sense. Sure, below 20 it does, but the quests I was refering to were the Outland quests they nerfed.
Outland
. At that point, people have subscribed and bought at least 1 expansion. And even before that, that reason for not making interesting fights only works before level 20. So theoretically, a level 25 quest could easily do this without problems.
And it doesn't need to be based around "knowing your class" or cooldowns. Just longer fights that actually takes effort to kill. And sure, the economical reason might be there for Blizzard, but as a player, I don't want people to think that everything is a cake-walk, and subscribe because of that. That's the reason we have so many bad players these days.
Post by
422399
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Trishi
*snip*
*snip*
*snip*
Wasn't aware that Outland was now free, not with the way that Blizzard was advertising for their 3-in-1 package with classic, BC and Wrath as a "special offer". Either way, they still need to subscribe, and by level 65, I'd say most people have a pretty good idea about whether or not they want to play the game.
But it isn't just to weed it out - That's another problem entirely. I want questing to be
interesting
. And to me, I can't see why anyone would find an interesting*, climatic fight at the end of a long quest chain, to be the defining reason why they wont stay in the game. That sounds completely off to me. I stick to my opinion that this is just Blizzard being lazy. So instead they just take the easy way out, and make everything simple 5-second fights.
*Interesting =/= Hard. We already discussed this, I just felt it probably was necessary to highlight it. "Interesting" basically means longer, and non-generic fights. Not Heroic Raid encounters which require large groups or special tactics. And if common sense is really too much to ask for in WoW-players, at least long enough to make it worthwhile to apply your DoTs you'd normally do in a dungeon.
Post by
Adamsm
As it stands, out dated content won't get upgrades to them until they are 'relevant' again; IE Outland, which got the nerf because those quests were still a massive pain in the ass to get through even when Wrath came out.
Now, when the Outland revamp goes live, we'll probably see quests updated to the new system; times where you have to pay attention to avoid attacks, times when you have to run like hell or else you go squish etc etc etc.
Really, Cata did this the 'best'; quite a few quests in the Highlands had mini-mechanics to prepare you for what you were about to go up against in the Bastion of Twilight. Those types of quests are still around in MoP: Such as the quest line in the Valley of Four Winds where you learn about Timed Hits from the ancient Master, then use said Timed Hits against the giant Mantid bug that finishes off the zone quest lines.
Also, what's interesting to you, will probably be boring/tedious to someone else, you have to remember that as well, since not all players are cut from the same cloth. As it stands, Blizzard is working on things like this, but since it's a 'new' addition to the game, you have to give them time to do so.
Post by
422399
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Trishi
I'm aware that my opinion of "interesting" is just that - An opinion, a subjective idea that doesn't necessarily apply to others in any significant amount. I have probably worded that a bit too forceful. Still, I fail to see why people would find it tedious - You are wasting a good 2-300 hours or so (Or about 100 if you are to believe the leveling guide ads) doing these quests, so why would you want them to be bland, meaningless and boring? Wouldn't it be nice to spice things up once in a while?
As it stands, out dated content won't get upgrades to them until they are 'relevant' again; IE Outland, which got the nerf because those quests were still a massive pain in the ass to get through even when Wrath came out.
I was thinking this as well when I followed the topic pre-cata. But that only makes sense from a certain perspective - They don't want to waste their time on dated content, and that's understandable... but they still took their time to nerf them. So instead of nerfing them like this, they could have put a few more minutes of effort into it, and at least given them a significantly larger healthpool and a bit more damage. They've ruined some of Outland's iconic quests, that any BC player remember. For better or worse. And from a quick question in my guild-chat, I found about 15 who was outright disappointed that they had just demoted them to random mook. Sure, it sucked not to complete them because it required a full party... But the disappointment in just backhanding these once-mighty adversaries out of existance. was worse. Or at least that's the general vibe my guild had towards it.
Whether this matters with the new generation of WoW players or not is another matter entirely. They probably don't care at all, and that's the reason why Blizzard nerfed them like they did. I do not have access to the data they have. So this might have some basis in surveys or somesuch that we simply don't know about.
WoW has ceased to be a game where questing plays a central role. As was discussed in a prior thread MoP will feature the fewest amount of unique quests of any expansion* and the largest amount of daily quests. I think it's simplistic to say that the developers are being "lazy". They've added a lot more new content (like pet battles) in other areas.That's the direction the game is headed. Blizzard doesn't care that much about questing anymore; the game has moved on.
If questing doesn't really play any central role, why aren't we just given the ability to pre-roll everything at entrylevel-current expansion? (80 now during Cata, 85 in MoP, ect. ect.)
With the SoR(quote: Jumbodog), you can just boost yourself to level 80 instantly. In that case, why not just allow everyone that option? If questing didn't matter, this would make much more sense.
I'm still assuming that questing
do
matter, and as you pointed out yourself, they took their time to retoll Azeroth almost entirely, with a ton of new quests. They had no reason to, but they did anyway. So clearly, it must have
some
point, despite their "instant level 80" programs. And maybe that is what is so confusing. What do they want to do? On one hand, they retoll all 1-60 quests, but on the other, they allow some people to skip right over it. *confused*
Post by
Adamsm
I'm aware that my opinion of "interesting" is just that - An opinion, a subjective idea that doesn't necessarily apply to others in any significant amount. I have probably worded that a bit too forceful. Still, I fail to see why people would find it tedious - You are wasting a good 2-300 hours or so (Or about 100 if you are to believe the leveling guide ads) doing these quests, so why would you want them to be bland, meaningless and boring? Wouldn't it be nice to spice things up once in a while? When I'm out there in the world questing, I'm doing it for three reasons:
1. To level, so while I enjoy some of the gimmick quests, I hate it when you get multiple ones that just destroy that for you(such as the endless cut scenes in Uldum).
2. For rep; I go back and do quests at max level to max out the rep grind as quickly as possible...so I'd rather not have some really buggy and out dated things messing with that.
3. For the story: Yes, a lot of the go kill 10 of these mobs don't have a lot of story to them(that's changing in MoP where you have a 'real' reason for doing them), but quests like Welcome to the Machine, the Hunts, and others like them make sense, and don't need to be 'hard' to make them enjoyable. Yes it's true you can kill things in 5 seconds at times...but that doesn't take away the story from what you are doing.
I was thinking this as well when I followed the topic pre-cata. But that only makes sense from a certain perspective - They don't want to waste their time on dated content, and that's understandable... but they still took their time to nerf them. So instead of nerfing them like this, they could have put a few more minutes of effort into it, and at least given them a significantly larger healthpool and a bit more damage. They've ruined some of Outland's iconic quests, that any BC player remember. For better or worse. And from a quick question in my guild-chat, I found about 15 who was outright disappointed that they had just demoted them to random mook. Sure, it sucked not to complete them because it required a full party... But the disappointment in just backhanding these once-mighty adversaries out of existance. was worse. Or at least that's the general vibe my guild had towards it. Because technically, once the new expansions come out, all of those 'iconic' quest mobs have already been dead for years: Going off of MoP, it's been 7 years in game since the Outland war ended with the death of Illidan and the defeat of KJ. From an RP perspective, you are traveling through the lands playing clean up crew at this point, moping up the left overs of the Legion, the Illidari, the Blood Elves and all the rest. The Isle of Quel'danas makes the completely clear, since all of the phases are open and the big bad is gone; you are there to gain some experience before moving on to the more deadly threats. As I've said already; I don't see anything wrong with making the once Elites into normal mobs, at this point in the game, you may as well do so, to make it 'easier' on the levelers. Really, Current Content is all that 'matters' for the difficulty spike to start up.
But, as there is a Outland and Northrend revamp in the works(probably see the Outland one next expansion), you'll get to see what happened to those lands after the defeat of their big bads; see who have moved in, who have caused more troubles etc etc etc.
Whether this matters with the new generation of WoW players or not is another matter entirely. They probably don't care at all, and that's the reason why Blizzard nerfed them like they did. I do not have access to the data they have. So this might have some basis in surveys or somesuch that we simply don't know about. They do; it's called the Player Base who wanted them changed so they wouldn't be chores to go through; it's the same reason why flying for BC was dropped to 60 to help make things easier in that regard.
Post by
422399
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
yukonjack
1. Not all of the Outlands group quests were nerfed a lot of Shadowmoon Valley and Netherstorm remains the same as it was when new.
2. Cross server dungeon finder filled cities and vacated questing zones which is why a lot of group quests were nerfed.
3.I don't like it either but I understand why it was done.
Post by
567203
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
160546
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
422399
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Azrile
1. Not all of the Outlands group quests were nerfed a lot of Shadowmoon Valley and Netherstorm remains the same as it was when new.
2. Cross server dungeon finder filled cities and vacated questing zones which is why a lot of group quests were nerfed.
3.I don't like it either but I understand why it was done.
Group quests were difficult to complete at level LONG before LFD. As others have stated countless times.. even doing the BC group quests in SMV and BEM were difficult before WOTLK. You constantly had to bug people from your guild who had already done the quests just to help you. Players not in guilds or without a huge friends list just had to skip them.
Even with the new cross-server zones, the old group quests would not work because most of them were at the end of the zone. So Player A gets to the group quest.. spends 10 minutes trying to find someone.. doesn´t find anyone.. moves to next zone and quickly outlevels the group quest. Player B, who was 20 minutes behind him in questing, gets to the group quest... can´t find anyone ( because Player A is now in a new zone). They were interesting quest, but the logisitics of it just makes it impractical and not worth the effort.
The devs have decided to solve the problem with scenarios, which is a better system than you guys are talking about.
Post by
yukonjack
1. Not all of the Outlands group quests were nerfed a lot of Shadowmoon Valley and Netherstorm remains the same as it was when new.
2. Cross server dungeon finder filled cities and vacated questing zones which is why a lot of group quests were nerfed.
3.I don't like it either but I understand why it was done.
Group quests were difficult to complete at level LONG before LFD. As others have stated countless times.. even doing the BC group quests in SMV and BEM were difficult before WOTLK. You constantly had to bug people from your guild who had already done the quests just to help you. Players not in guilds or without a huge friends list just had to skip them.
Even with the new cross-server zones, the old group quests would not work because most of them were at the end of the zone. So Player A gets to the group quest.. spends 10 minutes trying to find someone.. doesn´t find anyone.. moves to next zone and quickly outlevels the group quest. Player B, who was 20 minutes behind him in questing, gets to the group quest... can´t find anyone ( because Player A is now in a new zone). They were interesting quest, but the logisitics of it just makes it impractical and not worth the effort.
The devs have decided to solve the problem with scenarios, which is a better system than you guys are talking about.
I can't tell if you agree with or dispute my post, for the record though I do agree with the points you made.
Post by
BlackMonarch
The questing changes in Cata were a disaster.
They've practically killed questing off altogether. If you level by questing now you are in for a very lonely experience and it's been like that pretty much since the wave of Worgens and Goblins at the start of the expansion.
Who wants to do 1-85 of faceroll? (and thats without heirlooms - goodness knows how mind numbing it must be with them)
Are you trolling? What you just said was unbelievably wrong. Classic content was a nightmare with no structure or flow at all to the questing experience. It was just endless running back and forth between the zone's ONE quest hub and the outer edges of the zone, picking random pointless tasks to do from a full queue of 25 quests, and never feeling like you were progressing through the zone at all no matter how many quests you did. I never would have been able to get into this game without the revamp, and while the BC zones were slightly better, I still haven't been able to force myself to complete any of them except Eversong Woods.
The revamped zones are also not face-rollable by any standard unless you are a bottom-feeder like me who does all of the 1-10 zones before moving on to the 10-20 zones, then does the 10-20 zones before moving on to the 20-25 zones, etc... and even then, I STILL can't solo Yetimus.
Most 1-60 and 80-85 zones have a distinct ramp up in health when it comes to unique mini-boss type quest mobs. These mobs take longer to kill, but aren't no where as hard or durable as elites as we remembered them.
However, there are still elite mobs out there after the Shattering. Granted, they are few and far between, but in my mind, having them there only proved that the new system is more suitable. Out of the 3 characters I have leveled through Hillsbrad with, none of them done Yeticus the Yeti Lord at the correct level. Either because no one was there to join, or are just not interested in doing so. A dozen of solo'ing attempt also didn't come to fruition. The same can be said about the Durnholde Challenge chain. It was a bit easier to do, but I wasn't able to complete all of them on all of the 3 chars.
TLDR: Elite quests only makes sense if the zone is decently populated.
The reason why Nagrand elite quests weren't too bad during Wrath was that it almost always had people there.
Now that the population is more thin, elite quest would have become impossible if they had not been changed.
I'm going to partially disagree there. Those were all 3-man quests that became trivialized heavily by power creep and/or heirlooms. I was destroying them solo when leveling my alts in Wrath. =)
Good for you, but most characters aren't decorated head to toe in heirlooms like Johnny Awesome. For the average hunter wearing Spaulders of the Hero, Vest of the Phantom, Mr. Hider's Bracers, Broken Fingers of Hillsbrad, Belt of Beginnings, Supple Yeti Leggings, Awesome Boots, and Stillwater's Cloak, wielding Crossbow of the Twice-Slain and using Preemptive Staff as a stat stick, Yetimus means death in 2-3 seconds.
I don't think frustrating new players is a bad thing.
And that, my friend, is why you are not a game-developer. If you frustrate new players, they stop playing (or never buy the game in the first place), and you lose money. Not hard to figure out.
Now, when the Outland revamp goes live,
Outland is getting revamped? Sweet! What about the goat and Belf starting areas? If they revamp Outland but not the Ghostlands, I'm be pissed...
Post by
Adamsm
Now, when the Outland revamp goes live,
Outland is getting revamped? Sweet! What about the goat and Belf starting areas? If they revamp Outland but not the Ghostlands, I'm be pissed...
There isn't a known release date for it, just that it's going to happen eventually. And the starting zones haven't been mentioned yet.
Post by
civgw
The questing changes in Cata were a disaster.
They've practically killed questing off altogether. If you level by questing now you are in for a very lonely experience and it's been like that pretty much since the wave of Worgens and Goblins at the start of the expansion.
Who wants to do 1-85 of faceroll? (and thats without heirlooms - goodness knows how mind numbing it must be with them)
Are you trolling? What you just said was unbelievably wrong. Classic content was a nightmare with no structure or flow at all to the questing experience. It was just endless running back and forth between the zone's ONE quest hub and the outer edges of the zone, picking random pointless tasks to do from a full queue of 25 quests, and never feeling like you were progressing through the zone at all no matter how many quests you did. I never would have been able to get into this game without the revamp, and while the BC zones were slightly better, I still haven't been able to force myself to complete any of them except Eversong Woods.
The revamped zones are also not face-rollable by any standard unless you are a bottom-feeder like me who does all of the 1-10 zones before moving on to the 10-20 zones, then does the 10-20 zones before moving on to the 20-25 zones, etc... and even then, I STILL can't solo Yetimus.
I'm sorry but in comparison to BC, levelling is pretty easy these days.
The biggest danger is complacency or boredom - unless you are really unlucky with misses, you shouldn't really die unless you are doing some of the few remaining group quests in Icecrown, Netherstorm, Shadowmoon and one or two others elsewhere.
Yetimus is a problem, more because it is unusual for Cata, than anything else. According to wowhead posters, it is kitable and therefore doable for a hunter - I did it on a warlock (greens and no heirlooms) but that will be of no consolation to you.
If there were more of these kind of quests, it would be better for you and you would learn more about your class and be better suited for the endgame.
Post by
Adamsm
I'm sorry but in comparison to BC, levelling is pretty easy these days.Leveling was easy in BC too; it was just a matter of fighting for quest spawns, with a few of the elites able to kill you depending on the class: I soloed pretty much every elite quest on a Prot Warrior back then, except for the Sons of Gruul.
Post by
civgw
I'm sorry but in comparison to BC, levelling is pretty easy these days.Leveling was easy in BC too; it was just a matter of fighting for quest spawns, with a few of the elites able to kill you depending on the class: I soloed pretty much every elite quest on a Prot Warrior back then, except for the Sons of Gruul.
You don't seriously belief that Cata questing is on par with BC or Wrath for difficulty?
You don't see any difference in say STV in BC and STV now for the chances of dying?
Post by
Adamsm
I'm sorry but in comparison to BC, levelling is pretty easy these days.Leveling was easy in BC too; it was just a matter of fighting for quest spawns, with a few of the elites able to kill you depending on the class: I soloed pretty much every elite quest on a Prot Warrior back then, except for the Sons of Gruul.
You don't seriously belief that Cata questing is on par with BC or Wrath for difficulty?
You don't see any difference in say STV in BC and STV now for the chances of dying?
The biggest killer in STV was always other players, not the mobs. The only time back in Vanilla I died during those quests on a hunter was against good ole King Bangalash and that was due more to his little buddies showing up and ripping me a new one.
I like the new quests in STV, both parts. I enjoy the quest lines there and like the whole reclaiming of ZG as it goes.
As for Cata itself: I love Hyjal and quest there every chance I get. I absolutely love Deepholme, even with the pain in the buttness of Therazane. I love the Highlands, as the Dwarf quests are one of my favorites. As for Uldum; I hate the Harrison Jones crap but I love the Tol'vir quest lines. Vashj...I just hate that place.
As for the old world revamp: There really isn't a zone I don't enjoy now and I only skip areas if I'm trying to speed level. In Vanilla, I had a solid leveling path to only hit the zones I enjoyed and skipped all the crap zones; I haven't had to use it since the revamp.
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