@ Feminism

Post by MyTie

Feminism isn't anti men (at least not most feminists, the stereotypical feminazi that you hear about in anecdotes doesn't count)

But it does count. It counts because everyone who is associated with me by race, sex, or religion, that acts like an ASS, produces a negative stigma that I must battle against. Isn't that what the entire concept of "patriarchy" is? Men subjugating women, and holding onto power? It would be just as fair for me to say "most men aren't like that, so they don't count".

That's the problem that feminism has. It isn't just a movement to empower women. It is also a lightning rod for people who HATE men and masculinity. I have to fall over myself apologizing whenever a Christian acts unjustly. It's absolutely forbidden for me to NOT condemn them, so how is it that feminazis just "don't count"? Not to mention still being held accountable for wars done by the Catholic Church, like, a thousand years ago. And slavery by white people hundreds of years ago.

Post by Skreeran

I'm glad the rape discussion is mostly over, but I have to link this. https://www.change.org/petitions/cnn-apologize-on-air-for-sympathizing-with-the-steubenville-rapistsSigned.

Post by Gone

Post by Magician22773

If somebody blames you for the actions of your ancestors, then that person is an idiot and not worth listening to.

You realize you just insulted 2/3 of the members of this forum, right?

Post by Gone

If somebody blames you for the actions of your ancestors, then that person is an idiot and not worth listening to.

You realize you just insulted 2/3 of the members of this forum, right?

Nobody has blamed MyTie or anybody else here for the actions of our ancestors. They might have blamed Christianity itself or the white race as a whole, in which case I might disagree with that assertion, but its a debatable point. Their blaming something abstract, unlike the idea of MyTie or any of the rest of us bearing any responsibility for things that happened hundreds of years ago.

Post by Magician22773

I thought this thread could use a visual aid.

Post by Squishalot

Tarol Hunt (author of the webcomic Goblins) had a good position on the issue, which I think should fairly identify the issues being raised here.

As quoted below:

As most of you are aware, Wil Wheaton has a simple but powerful rule, ”Don’t be a dick”. It’s a wonderful rule. I mean… it seems so easy! I just won’t be a dick! This is awesome! I’m completely dickless! Wait…

I noticed something on Twitter today. A lady who we’ll call… um… Lightsaber (because lightsabers are powered by awesome, just like this woman is) had just finished making a few tweets that were of a sexual nature, specifically about her own body. In no time, creepy, gross, pervy tweets started to rain down on Lightsaber. She made the argument that posting about her own body does not give everyone out there the right to be disgusting jerks. Some of those jerks started to argue back. I watched as Lightsaber’s tweets began to insult not just the men who where being asshats, but men in general. This brings us to the part where I did something stupid.

I tweeted that I was getting that icky ‘man-bashing’ feeling that comes with listening to anyone talk about how “all men are assholes” or “all men only want one thing”. Keep in mind that Lightsaber did not say either of these statements. I’m just using them as common examples of man-bashing.

Lightsaber told me “All the people attacking me are men. All of them. You need to accept that.” This stung in that sticky way that hangs around for hours afterward. I mean, I have no doubt that all of her attackers were men, but it felt like a statement defending the right to insult men in general. Not only that, I was now told to accept it. Not consider it, look into it or discuss it, but to accept it. I chose to discuss it. I tweeted “With respect: If I were to tweet ‘all women <insert negative thing here> and they need to accept it’, I’d be in huge trouble”.

This was so stupid on my part. Here was Lightsaber (who has a LOT of Twitter followers) going through a situation where she was being attacked by a large number of people who were being sexually disgusting and even more people who were calling her nasty names for standing up for herself. And what did I do? I flanked her like an ass-hat! With the misogynists on Lightsaber’s right, I took her left, choosing THAT moment to fight for men everywhere. Geez, this wasn’t about me or about men being victims. This was about Lightsaber going through some nasty shit.

But the damage was done. Lightsaber called me a couple names, threw me onto the back of the truck with all the pervy, gross guys and blocked me from her Twitter account. Ouch. As the metaphorical pick-up truck drove away with me on it, I looked around at all the greasy guys yelping “Tits or GTFO” and “I would so do you” like misogynistic hiccups. I had somehow ended up fighting on the wrong side. Was I one of these sexist jerks? Should I just get myself a t-shirt that complains about the “friend zone” and be done with it? Wheaton’s law came to my mind, not because I thought Lightsaber had been a dick, but because I had been one. I apologised to her and moved on, prepared to accept the sting of my exile.

It wasn’t long before the wave of tweets came in to drop their two cents on me. This make sense, I mean Twitter is public. Some people were supportive (thanks, you guys and gals!), some were neutral-ish bits of helpful information and some were down right nasty. I was “loled” at and called an idiot, an asshole, a stupid turd… (oh damn, what was that one) a turd…head? Turd…boner? (Gah, now it’s going to bug me. I liked that one). Anyways, they took turns calling me names and telling me how sexism against men doesn’t exist. Well, I’m going to disagree here (notice how I’m not disagreeing with the “idiot” thing).

On rare occasions, I have had to prove to a person, before anything else, that I was not a misogynist. This hasn’t happened a lot, but more than once, I’ve met someone who had their first impression of me set as Default: Misogynist. On these few cases, I was pre-judged. I had experienced prejudicial treatment because of my gender. Now is this the same as the sexism that so many women have faced and still face today? Hell no!

Imagine sexism against men is a painful cut on your finger. A cut like that really hurts. I mean… damn, sexism hurts like hell! Why doesn’t someone do something about that poor sexism cut? It’s even bleeding a little! Poor me! Well if you look to your right, you’ll see a lady with HER sexism wound. Well… wounds, really. Her arms and legs have been ripped off and her eyes gouged out. Her spine is broken in many places and there is a shocking collection of swords, spears and farm tools sticking out of her belly. How’s that finger feeling now, champ? What I’m trying to say, is that while I believe sexism against men exists, it’s nothing compared to the bullshit women have to deal with. If the female victim of sexism and I (with my finger) were in an emergency room, I wouldn’t leap in front of her, screaming “Heal my finger first, Doctors!”. Yet, that’s what I did to Lightsaber today. It was a cowardly, selfish way to break Wheaton’s law. Hmmm, shame smells like pine.

When I mentioned sexism against men, some women became upset or even angry. This really bothered me, since I didn’t want to upset or anger anyone. I just didn’t want to be told that I was moron because I was a man. That’s not true, dammit! I’d be just as much of a moron if I had a vagina instead of a penis! Wait…

So there I was, trying to discuss the issue through twitter with a handful of women who would hate me, if I wasn’t too worthless to hate. While they called me names, I was told to apologise. I did. The apology was labelled as half-assed and I was called more names. I asked to be pointed in the right direction to learn about women’s right and the sexism they face and I was chewed up for wasting their time “It’s not my job to teach you how to not be an asshole!” I was told. At one point, I got a ”apologise then STFU!” I eventually got a couple book titles, thanked them for their time and moved on.

I really feel that I was treated like a slug in a salad because I’m a man. Maybe I’m wrong, but with this belief, comes a taste of sexism. And here’s where this scenerio puts on the IronMan armour of moral realisation and flies around, shooting repulsor beams. I got a TASTE of sexism. In fact, any time I run into sexism against men, it’s just a rare taste of it. I’ll never have to deal with the ongoing, daily bullshit that women have to. And that’s just the North America bullshit! There are places where women literally and openly BELONG to men and aren’t allowed to know how to read and have to wear fourteen blankets, two plastic R2D2 masks and a cigarette shop before they can step outside!

Is there sexism against men? Yes, but my tiny, little cuts can be taken care of with a band aid and a cookie. I think I’ll shut the hell up about them and do my best to learn about and deal with the real sexism. And again… I’m really sorry, Lightsaber.

TL;DR: Don't be a #$@%, treat others with respect.

Post by Magician22773

TL;DR: Don't be a #$@%, treat others with respect.

Respect....like the respect that all the women treated this guy with?

Post by Jubilee

Did you even read that quote?

Post by MyTie

That's the problem that feminism has. It isn't just a movement to empower women. It is also a lightning rod for people who HATE men and masculinity. I have to fall over myself apologizing whenever a Christian acts unjustly. It's absolutely forbidden for me to NOT condemn them, so how is it that feminazis just "don't count"? Not to mention still being held accountable for wars done by the Catholic Church, like, a thousand years ago. And slavery by white people hundreds of years ago.

Because only children jumping on some liberal bandwagon are going to blame modern Christians for wars fought supposedly in the name of God hundreds of years ago. Same deal with modern whites and slavery, upper middle class white people suffering from white guilt are a lot more likely to condemn their own race for what happened over a century ago than minorities are.

If somebody blames you for the actions of your ancestors, then that person is an idiot and not worth listening to.

I'm not saying that I'm BLAMED. I'm saying that I'm held accountable and responsible. That's the idea behind this patriarchy thing right? Thousands of years of white men getting everyone down, so it is my responsibility to even it out, and to be made aware of something that I can never be aware of due to my white skin and penis. I'm saying that if I must be responsible for the actions of those long gone, although not blamed for those actions, then I have to point out the double standard of feminists not holding "feminazis" (as you put it) responsible.

I mean, how many times must I explain the differences between Christianity and people who stone people they don't like? I'm not in the free pass kind of mood. So, whenever feminists are faced with feminazism, explain why it is wrong. Indulge me.

THIS article says it better than me. Here are some quotes from it, which were spoken by prominent feminists:“I feel that ‘man-hating’ is an honourable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them.” – Robin Morgan, Ms. Magazine Editor

“To call a man an animal is to flatter him; he’s a machine, a walking dildo.” -– Valerie Solanas

“I want to see a man beaten to a bloody pulp with a high-heel shoved in his mouth, like an apple in the mouth of a pig.” — Andrea Dworkin

“Rape is nothing more or less than a conscious process of intimidation by which all men keep all women in a state of fear” — Susan Brownmiller

“The more famous and powerful I get the more power I have to hurt men.” — Sharon Stone

“In a patriarchal society, all heterosexual intercourse is rape because women, as a group, are not strong enough to give meaningful consent.” — Catherine MacKinnon

“The proportion of men must be reduced to and maintained at approximately 10% of the human race.” — Sally Miller Gearhart

“Men who are unjustly accused of rape can sometimes gain from the experience.” – Catherine Comins

“All men are rapists and that’s all they are” — Marilyn French

“Probably the only place where a man can feel really secure is in a maximum security prison, except for the imminent threat of release.” — Germaine Greer.I'd like to hear what the feminists here have to say about these quotes. The problem is there is rarely any condemnation for people who talk like that from other feminists. And, these are the prominent people in the feminists movement.

Post by Magician22773

Did you even read that quote?

Yeah, I read

I watched as Lightsaber’s tweets began to insult not just the men who where being asshats, but men in general.

See, that is where Lightsaber lost my sympathy. If you want to attack someone directly that you feel attacked you, go for it. But if you want to attack a group in general, then you have just become as bad or worse than whatever you thought you were defending yourself against in the first place.

If I get mugged by a black guy, then I have every right to be pissed at that black guy. But if start spewing about 'blacks' being a bunch of lowlife, mugging, thugs, then I am a racist.

Lightsaber told me “All the people attacking me are men. All of them. You need to accept that.”

Yeah...and? If I got mugged 4 times, and all of them were black...is my statement above any less racist now? I don't care if every robbery in every state that ever happened was committed by a black man, that still does not justify attacking all blacks.

It makes no difference if all the people attacking her were men. If she was insulting all men for it, she was the asshat.

some were down right nasty. I was “loled” at and called an idiot, an !@#$%^&, a stupid turd… (oh damn, what was that one) a turd…head? Turd…boner? (Gah, now it’s going to bug me. I liked that one). Anyways, they took turns calling me names and telling me how sexism against men doesn’t exist.

Did you read that part? Is that respectful? Or was it simply justified because this man dared to call a woman out for going on a femnazi rant?

Maybe I’m wrong, but with this belief, comes a taste of sexism. And here’s where this scenerio puts on the IronMan armour of moral realisation and flies around, shooting repulsor beams. I got a TASTE of sexism. In fact, any time I run into sexism against men, it’s just a rare taste of it. I’ll never have to deal with the ongoing, daily bull*!@# that women have to. And that’s just the North America bull&*!@! There are places where women literally and openly BELONG to men and aren’t allowed to know how to read and have to wear fourteen blankets, two plastic R2D2 masks and a cigarette shop before they can step outside!

Yeah, he did get a taste. And it was no more "right" or "wrong" than any of the the things he described here. Just because there is less of it, does not make it less wrong.

Just look at the flavor..err...topic of the day, rape. There are many more rapes against women than there are men, but does that lessen the severity of men who do get raped? Since most rapists are men, does that make all men rapists? No, and no.

And just because more women endure sexism from men, it does not justify insulting men in general.

Post by Skreeran

You're missing the point of the story.

Those women were sexist against that man, and that is wrong.

What he took away from it was not that they were right, but that the sexism they treated him to hurt, and having that small dose of sexist hurt gave him perspective on the centuries of sexism most women have been treated to.

Post by Squishalot

Yeah, he did get a taste. And it was no more "right" or "wrong" than any of the the things he described here. Just because there is less of it, does not make it less wrong.

It doesn't make it more 'right' or 'wrong' just because there was less of it. What he recognised, that I think people here need to recognise, is that you shouldn't (belittle the issues of others) / (push your own agenda) / (be generally and disrespectful to others) just because you feel that your hurt is somehow more worthy of complaint than theirs.

If Lightsaber in this example was making a generalist claim about men, that doesn't give Tarol any justification to follow up with a generalist claim about women, or to try and justify why she's wrong about a minor thing she's said, when she's clearly taking an unfair beating about being female. It just makes him sound like a $#%@. That's not to say that Lightsaber was necessarily right to paint all men as being evil, but at the end of the day, we can only control our own actions. If you got mugged by 4 black guys, I don't think anyone here would be criticising you for mouthing off at black people generally right away. They might mention it afterwards once a suitable period of time has passed and things have calmed down, but it'd be downright rude to interrupt your serious issues with our petty moral high ground.

So again, the moral of the story: don't be a $#%@.

Post by Magician22773

It doesn't make it more 'right' or 'wrong' just because there was less of it. What he recognized, that I think people here need to recognize, is that you shouldn't (belittle the issues of others) / (push your own agenda) / (be generally and disrespectful to others) just because you feel that your hurt is somehow more worthy of complaint than theirs.

But is that not exactly what Lightsaber did here? She belittled men in general because she felt insulted by a group of men.

Look, I am not trying to defend the men that insulted her.

The issue here, is that this situation had two parties that were both wrong. But, because one party is from a historically "repressed" group, they are getting a free pass. That is wrong! Every one of us learned the lesson "Two wrongs do not make a right"....most of us learned that rule in kindergarten.

This guy has repeatedly apologized to Lightsaber, including the article, which is just a continuation of that apology. Where is her apology?

If you want "equality" (isn't that what feminism is supposedly all about?), then seek equality. Do not expect preferential treatment just because you are a minority, or have been subjugated in the past. (or present)

In this case, Lightsaber "started it', and this guy called her out on it, and then he was bashed by a bunch of feminists. Of those 3 parties involved, the only one apologizing, quite profusely, has the least amount of wrongdoing to be apologizing for.

If you got mugged by 4 black guys, I don't think anyone here would be criticizing you for mouthing off at black people generally right away. They might mention it afterwards once a suitable period of time has passed and things have calmed down, but it'd be downright rude to interrupt your serious issues with our petty moral high ground.

OK. In prison I was assaulted and nearly killed by 4 Mexican gang members. I have lost all the teeth on the left side of my mouth, I had to have my left orbital socket rebuilt surgically, I have significantly lost my eyesight in that eye, and I have, and will have for the rest of life, constant pain and / or numbness because of that beating.

That happened over 10 years ago. Do I have the right to generalize that all Mexicans are sadistic prison rapists? Should I have the right to bash them in a public setting? And if anyone calls me out for doing so, should they be targeted by other racists for not being sympathetic to my plight?

The answer is again, No, no, and no. It really seems like a simple concept to me. I really do not get why it is so difficult for others. Like you, and the author said...don't be a d&%@, regardless of your situation. In this case, Lightsaber was being a d*^# too.

FYI....why is D*^% (Richard), not censored by the filter? I had to do it myself.

Post by Squishalot

I really do not get why it is so difficult for others. Like you, and the author said...don't be a @#$%, regardless of your situation. In this case, Lightsaber was being a @#$% too.

Yes, but you put yourself into the same position if you call her out on it when she's right in the middle of it. These events happened in realtime. With regards to that particular situation, imagine that you called out for help and said "get these Mexican guys off me" and someone came over and started lecturing you about being racist at that point in time. Not 10 years after the fact, but while you're still getting pummeled.

It's not that they're getting a free pass. There are two potential @#$%s, and only one of them is in our control. If you want the high moral ground, stay on the high ground. Do the respectful thing now, and we can sit down after the fact once everybody's calmed down, and put forward your own agenda later.

FYI....why is D*^% (Richard), not censored by the filter? I had to do it myself.

We had an argument with admins about why certain words used to describe anatomy were being filtered, but others weren't.

(See post here: http://www.wowhead.com/forums&topic=159500 - before my moderating days)(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##Squishalot##DELIM##

Post by gnomerdon

Men and women both suffer from problems caused by the patriarchy, but it obviously has a more profound effect on women.

how would you know that? =( men feel the same exact pain as women. we just don't know how to express it.

Post by Magician22773

With regards to that particular situation, imagine that you called out for help and said "get these Mexican guys off me" and someone came over and started lecturing you about being racist at that point in time. Not 10 years after the fact, but while you're still getting pummeled.

That is still not an accurate analog here.

If I had yelled out "Get these damn Sp!c's off me!", and then proceeded to start yelling about how every Mexican in the block was a worthless wetb@ck, I would have been beaten to death by every Mexican within earshot. And if the guards had happened to be Latino, I doubt they would have been all that concerned with stopping the fight. And rightfully so. If you are in downtown Detroit, and you are getting mugged by a black man, screaming "^&*! all you @#$%^&s!" is not a very good way to expect help.

Do the respectful thing now, and we can sit down after the fact once everybody's calmed down, and put forward your own agenda later.

OK, so does Lightsaber owe this guy an apology now? Maybe she wasn't feeling to apologetic in real time, but how about after the fact. Should she, if she were to see this article, offer an apology of her own, and admit that she to, was a d!ck?

EDIT:...Sheesh, you guys should also add a few racial slurs to the filter as well. It seems that only the N word gets filtered.

Post by Squishalot

If I had yelled out "Get these damn Sp!c's off me!", and then proceeded to start yelling about how every Mexican in the block was a worthless wetb@ck, I would have been beaten to death by every Mexican within earshot. And if the guards had happened to be Latino, I doubt they would have been all that concerned with stopping the fight. And rightfully so. If you are in downtown Detroit, and you are getting mugged by a black man, screaming "^&*! all you @#$%^&s!" is not a very good way to expect help.

Just like complaining online isn't a good way to expect help? Sure. The Latino guards would have sat there ironically and lectured you about it quite happily, while you were getting beaten up. But the last thing you need at that point is to have someone else weigh in with their own issues.

OK, so does Lightsaber owe this guy an apology now? Maybe she wasn't feeling to apologetic in real time, but how about after the fact. Should she, if she were to see this article, offer an apology of her own, and admit that she to, was a d!ck?

I think they did kiss and make up, as far as I seem to recall what the outcome was a couple of days later. Whether she apologised or not is a separate issue - I'm not sure that you would've apologised to a guard for using a racial slur if you ever met him again. He would've been just another person who f'd you over while you were down. Why would you feel the need to apologise to someone in that circumstance?

Post by Skreeran

Curiously enough, as a side issue, I can't actually think of any slurs regarding men. I mean, you have your homosexual and racial slurs for different varieties of men, but there aren't really obscenities for a man like there are for women. I can say wh%$# or sl%$ or c%$# or b%$#@ as a slur against women.

I'm kinda drawing a blank for men though. Jackass? D%$#?

Post by Magician22773

Just like complaining online isn't a good way to expect help? Sure.

Huh? Before I make any comment on this, could you please explain what you mean here?

Whether she apologized or not is a separate issue

I am more interested in if you think an apology is deserved. Since I don't know if there is any continuation to this article, I don't really expect an answer to "did she apologize?"

I'm not sure that you would've apologised to a guard for using a racial slur if you ever met him again. He would've been just another person who f'd you over while you were down.

Again, wrong analogy. The guard would not be the one using the racial slur...that (hypothetically) would have been me.

The question is, should I apologize to the guard for me yelling a racial slur.

Maybe the second analogy is easier to use, since it is more closely related to the actual situation.

I am walking through downtown Detroit. A black man tells me to hand over my wallet. The only people that can hear me are other blacks. I start spewing racial slurs at, not just the robber, but at all the other blacks that can hear me.

"This #$%^&*s robbing me!"

"Why are all you stupid @#$%^&s not helping me?"

"Jesus! You %^&*!@s are all to damn lazy to even help me!"

<the crowd> "Look, if you are going to call us all lazy #$%^&*s, then you deserve to get robbed"

So now.....we have

The Robber (the group of men that were insulting Lightsaber)

Me (Lightsaber)

The Crowd (the guy who wrote the article)

Now, did I deserve to get robbed in the first place, just because I had money in my wallet...No

Should I have expected the anyone from the crowd to come to my aid, even though I was insulting them all, just because they were of the same group as the robber? No.

Does anyone in that crowd owe me an apology? No.

Do I owe everyone in that crowd an apology? Yes.

Does the robber owe me an apology? Yes.

I cannot make it any more clear than that. The guys insulting Lightsaber were wrong, and she had reason to lash out at them....and them only.

The guy that called her out for insulting all men, instead of just the attackers did little, if anything wrong, IMHO.

The people that attacked him, and Lightsaber are the ones that are at fault here. Just as the robber, and the racist victim are fault. Lightsaber does not owe the men that attacked her an apology, but she does owe the author, and men in general one, and so do the others that attacked him.

@ Feminism

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