How good is FT/FT with glyph?

Post Reply

Return to board index

Post by 728418

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Post by 181706

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Post by 338789

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Post by 45162

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Post by soccergenius

No: because in order to get good dps from FT/FT, you need fast weapons in both slots. All of our non-spell abilities scale from weapon damage, not weapon dps. Slow weapons favour the former, fast weapons the latter. So your SS, LL, UE, etc will do significantly less damage using fast weapons. Also: AFAIK, the FT unleash does not stack the fire damage buff, but I'm not 100% on this.

Figure out from the above why FT/FT doesn't even compare to WF/FT....

Couple of things.

As Promethean stated, FT proc dmg is normalized, slow weapons will proc the most dmg.

Double Unleash Flametongue's buff does not stack, it's still only 30% (with talent) and you only get one buff. It still correctly deals dmg for each application of FT.

The glyph stacks with each application of FT. FT/FT with the glyph gives you 4% spell crit.

Depending on your setup and weapons, FT/FT can do more dmg. However you need very good gear and a good, slow caster weapon, with the FT glyph. It's simming much higher than a traditional WF/FT setup for some people. However, I tested this myself (you can armory me, I'm in 346 or better gear sans one piece), on a dummy self buffed and both setups were within 200 dps of each other, with WF/FT winning. I don't know if raid buffs would have swung it the other way, but I'll be keeping my normal setup (WF/FT). From experience, if you have to ask if FT/FT is better, it probably isn't.

Don't use this for leveling, this discussion only applies to endgame raiding.

Post by 510603

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Post by soccergenius

I know 200 dps is within a small margin of error, it's 0.0133% of the total dps (15k with WF/FT). My point was that at least for me, it's approximately the same dps. I ran both tests for 5 min, I didn't feel like my standard 30 min dummy test.

Post by Onijitsu

Well, and it's something that Ghostcrawler has said is going bye-bye, very, very soon. They don't want us using Caster weps in Enhance. (Even though they want us to be melee... casters? O.o)

Post by 338789

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Post by soccergenius

As Promethean stated, FT proc dmg is normalized, slow weapons will proc the most dmg. Wait, was that the case in WOTLK ? If so when did that change ?

TBH, I kinda ignored FT/FT after tier 7 when GC said "Yeah, this is not what we want and we will be changing it to make it non-viable."

They changed it during T7 content to both make using caster main hands and fast offhands non-viable (there was only 1 slow epic caster weapon). I never used a caster weapon then, but I did have Sinister Revenge for a while; that thing is huge on a Tauren.

Post by 757209

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Post by soccergenius

Also, when leveling in particular, Windfury is never guaranteed to even proc on any give fight(s). FT is pretty much assured to hit every time (it does have something like a .15 sec internal cooldown). I recently tried to swap back to WF/FT and even getting 2 WF procs, the fights went on longer and the dps ran lower than with FT/FT.

@80 in my T10, if WF proc'd from my first SS, any lvl 80 mob was dead from that 1 GCD. You're also forgetting that WF increases Maelstrom Weapon procs and Flurry uptime.

FYI to everyone reading this thread, since I haven't seen anyone mention it yet, FT has ~0.15 sec internal CD. That means that not only will SS only give 1 FT proc ever, but if you use matched speed weapons, 2.6/2.6 for example, you're missing almost 50% of your FT procs and it's a HUGE dps loss.

Post by Onijitsu

I've been using FT/FT for leveling since about 75, and it has been very nice all the way up (now 83). Shamans do so much of their damage from elemental sources that count in spell power, and Flametongue weapon gives extra spell power on top of the extra crit% from the glyph.

That spellpower from dual-FT doesn't stack, however, from what I've seen. So what you're getting is a single spellpower boost... and a bit more randomly-added fire damage on the other weapon. (I have no idea if UE gives any double-boost to Flameshock) You might actually get better benefits from going with Frostbrand (much more randomly-added damage) with your FT, if you don't like Windfury.

Windfury, though, has something like a 33% uptime, if you don't count its 3 sec cooldown after each WF proc, according to the eggheads at EJ. That's a huge boost to Attack Power. And, our Spell Power is largely based off our Attack Power (SP = 1/2 AP, via Mental Quickness), so I'm assuming that a WF proc boosts your SP as well.

Post by soccergenius

The spell power bonus from Flametongue stack. I'll be posting my FT/FT vs WF/FT dummy tests shortly.

Post by 92763

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Post by 45162

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Post by tuckmuck203

Without going into arbitrary details, I found in testing that WF/FT with a melee MH/melee OH is roughly 200-300 dps higher than FT/FT with caster MH/melee OH. All weap speeds were around 2.60. I know, I was disappointed too.

I've found in testing (previous this most late hotfix) that my DPS was ~500-1000dps higher with Caster/Melee FT/FT than with Melee/Melee WF/FT. Note that you need a 2.3speed Caster weapon, OR a raid 1.8speed caster weapon, as the spell damage increase from the weapon makes up for the decrease in speed.

I thought they nerfed all the caster weapon dps to 45 dps in order to prevent this?

Post by Cadiac

The damage nerf didn't help at all - the spellpower and FT in MH compensates the loss in melee damage.

At least so far no nerfs on PTR server to FT, and I hope they dont fix it in 4.0.6. I like having 9,7k SP selfbuffed :p