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IAotH and its glyph
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Post by
phatlewtz
The stickies suggested a BM build that includes Improved Aspect of the Hawk, as well as taking the glyph for it. I'm a little confused by these choices, as I had read that haste was not very good for a BM hunter. Haste only improves our autoshots since we have Serpent's Swiftness.
I can understand not choosing haste on your gear. There are so many other stats to choose first (hit, AP, crit, etc.) If you end up with a little haste by coincidence, fine... it helps autoshots a little. But don't stack it.
And I can sorta understand taking IAotH in tier 1 of the BM tree over Endurance Training. Maybe. Raid builds go for max DPS it seems, even if the DPS increase is trivial. IAotH improves DPS by improving autoshots slightly. However, couldn't you also argue that a dead pet or dead hunter is a big DPS loss? So would taking Endurance Training for better survival be better for the raid than taking a piddly DPS increase from IAotH?
Finally, even if IAotH is worth taking over Endurance Training, there's the glyph choice. Why take a glyph that adds even more haste, if haste is so undesirable in the first place? Wouldn't something else be better... Kill Shot maybe (for an extra shot or 2 more as the boss is near death)? Hunter's MArk glyph (if there are no MM hunter's in the raid? The Hawk glyph choice in the stickies really baffled me!
So, if all these things are being taken in the preferred BM build, does this mean haste has real value to a BM hunter?
Thanks.
Post by
Sokur
Heres the catch 22. If you're raiding, and you are talking about raiding, you want max DPS. BM will not give you max dps. If you're talking about Min/Max then go SV or MM.
Endurance Training does nothing for dps which means that your already lackluster DPS from rolling BM is gimped even more by not taking
iAotH
. The 15% haste does not just effect our Auto Shot, it also effects the casting time of Steady Shot, which is a huge portion of the Hunter's DPS.
Glyphing
for it adds another 6% haste meaning that now your Auto & Steady Shots are coming 21% faster, sounds like more dps than 10% more health for my pet.
Last time I checked
52/14/5
was the highest dps spec for BM hunters. Don't expect to compete with MM/SV Hunters in equal gear, but if BM is your thing go for it.
Post by
phatlewtz
Thx, but doesn't Serpent's Swiftness already give enough haste to reduce the casting time of Steady Shot below the GCD? If so, then haste is only affecting auto-shots (well, Res Pet and Volley too, but they don't come into play on boss fights so much).
So, haste for autoshots, or STAM for me and my pet. Yes, I agree that STAM is not DPS, unless it keep me and my pet alive, in which case it is MORE DPS! I'm assuming the raid healers keep everyone alive, but sometimes PUG's don't go so well and I'd like a little HP cushion. Or perhaps, does Endurance Training not give a big enough STAM boost to be worth it?
Yes, I realize MM/SV are indeed better for raid DPS. I'm kinda stuck with single spec mode right now, trying to support other alts with fast flight and what not. I figured BM gives me a decent all-around build for heroics, entry level raiding, and solo questing for dailies.
Post by
Sokur
You honestly think 5% health for a ranged dps and 10% health for your pet is going to make the difference? And you're really considering health over haste for a RANGED dps? I don't know if you're trolling or not, it's deffinitely starting to seem like it, but these are constructive forums, if you're having that much trouble figuring it out, then just stop and go play Everquest or something.
Post by
355869
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469284
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Post by
phatlewtz
Sigh... any helpful replies from someone who is NOT antagonistic and arrogant? Why don't YOU go play Everquest Sukor?
I understand what you are trying to say Sukor! Feel better now? All I'm getting at is that the stickies say BM does not wany haste (beyond what Serpent's Swiftness already gives you), and yet the preferred BM build has additional haste talents and glyphs. At that point, shouldn't OTHER talents and glyphs be considered?
OK assuming I take IAotH as my tier 1 talent... explain to me why Glyph of the Hawk is then the glyph I want to take, given that the stickies say that BM hunters don't put as much value in haste? Why then use a glyph to give more haste to a haste talent? Why not use a glyph like Serpent Sting? 6 extra secs before refreshes means 2 more Steady Shots... does that equate to more DPS? Or anything else.
Sorry for asking questions and trying to understand the game better instead of blindly following cookie cutter builds.
Post by
469284
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Post by
355869
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Post by
phatlewtz
Thanks Sinin. What it seems you and Sukor are saying is that haste still has great benefit to a BM hunter (even after taking Serpent's Swiftness, which puts Steady Shot under the GCD all by itself) in terms of autoshots, despite the stickies saying we should not go out of our way to get haste. Maybe not stack it on gear or gem/enchant it, but that it needs to be taken in glyphs and talents as there are not other choices for improving DPS. The stickies should clarify this, as it is an apparent contradiction.
Thx again! <edited: Thank you too Gnorf! I hadn't refreshed my browser you I missed your replies in there with the others.>
Post by
Sokur
Sigh... any helpful replies from someone who is NOT antagonistic and arrogant? Why don't YOU go play Everquest Sukor?
You came to these forums asking questions, you read the stickies, you still had questions, we answered. If you think I was just blowing smoke then say so, but I am neither antagonistic or arrogant. You wanted an answer, i gave you the right answer, that wasnt enough for you. Sorry.
Post by
378995
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Post by
Sokur
Actually endurance training will provide a increase in dps :P (only as SV)
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=56341
will make the 5% health into ap thus increasing survivability and dps but its so marginal that unless a hunter has 30k hp its no use at all. More autoshots are just flat out better :D
No it wont. Hunter V Wild is based off stamina while Endurance Training increases Health.
Edited for spelling
Post by
izuul
All I'm getting at is that the stickies say BM does not wany haste (beyond what Serpent's Swiftness already gives you), and yet the preferred BM build has additional haste talents and glyphs. At that point, shouldn't OTHER talents and glyphs be considered?
Several points here:
1) Haste does suck for hunters... of every spec. You should avoid it
on gear
whenever possible.
2) Improved Aspect of the Hawk is the only option from tier 1. The alternative is some added health for you and your pet. When choosing b/t a talent that adds DPS and one that does not, you want to choose the DPS talent 99%+ of the time. Exception being some crazy survival fight where it's useful to have more health... not unheard of, but very rare, and that's what your offspec build is for these days anyway.
3) It just so happens that the Hawk glyph IS good for BM despite the fact that it adds haste. Haste sucks from an itemization standpoint b/c each point of haste is vastly inferior to other stats, but costs the same amount in terms of itemization budget. However, when you are talking about talents and glyphs, there isn't anything like that in play. You aren't comparing 20 haste to 20 agility or 20 ArP or 20 crit.
In this particular instance, the glyph provides enough additional haste that it's still worth using despite the fact that haste is a weak on a point-for-point basis.
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